Favorite suspect/s?

[packers stem]

Once again i am forced to agree. Proximity should not be seen as explanation on its own for a possible trip to Berner Street , and certainly not for the proposed journey to Mitre Square.

Steve

Maybe he decided to buy some grapes for mother ....

[Elamarna]

I didn't think you were, Steve, but I have often wondered why, if Lechmere was the killer and was visiting his mother and daughter in Cable Street (I think that's right?) on the night of the double event, he came to be in Berner Street. That's not on an obvious route home to Doveton Street, nor was Berner Street itself an obvious place to look for prostitutes as far as I'm aware.

Once again i am forced to agree. Proximity should not be seen as explanation on its own for a possible trip to Berner Street , and certainly not for the proposed journey to Mitre Square.

Steve

[MrBarnett]

Not disagreeing with any of that Gary. Merely pointing out that the location is not unique to Cross/Lechmere.


Steve

I didn't think you were, Steve, but I have often wondered why, if Lechmere was the killer and was visiting his mother and daughter in Cable Street (I think that's right?) on the night of the double event, he came to be in Berner Street. That's not on an obvious route home to Doveton Street, nor was Berner Street itself an obvious place to look for prostitutes as far as I'm aware.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As I asked Abby, if Paul knew that Cross told Mizen a PC was already attending to Nichols, why did he complain in his newspaper account that the poor woman had been left alone on the street, dead and cold, while Mizen continued to knock up? He'd have been inviting Mizen to accuse both men of lying, wouldn't he?

Love,

Caz
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Excellent point Caz I’ll be interested to read the response.

[Elamarna]

I think Pickfords were elbowed out in the 1870's, but the LNWR goods depot was still operational in the early 20th century I believe. I'm not at home at the mo, so I don't have my Pickfords books to hand to check the date. I'll check it for you next week. (If I forget give me a prod!)

An interesting fact about Haydon Square is that if you found yourself in Mitre Square and wanted to exit the City ASAP, that's pretty much where you'd find yourself. Church Street/Minories, just below Aldgate High Street and quite close to Goulston Street.

Thanks for the info Gary


Steve

[Elamarna]

But Berner Street was very much on Lechmere's home turf, I'd have thought. The family lived in that part of St Geo E for 2/3 decades. CAL had grown up there - Mary Ann Street, Thomas (Pinchin Street), the north side of Cable Street, Jane Street.

The psychogeographical aspect of that intrigues me. As I mentioned before, when CAL was a boy the area delineated by Cable Street, Backchurch Lane, Commercial Road and Christian/Grove Streets contained the notorious Tiger Bay, focussed on Brunswick, Frederick, Henry and Everard Streets. By the 1880s the prostitutes had largely moved out and been replaced by poor Jewish immigrants.

Not disagreeing with any of that Gary. Merely pointing out that the location is not unique to Cross/Lechmere.


Steve

[MrBarnett]

Tongue in cheek of not Gary, all issues which have to be addressed.

If he had been in the cricket team surely he cricket surely he would be some sort of mystery spinner, bamboozleing the authorities prior to the invention of the Googly.

Serious question Gary, do we k ow when Haydon Square closed?


Steve

I think Pickfords were elbowed out in the 1870's, but the LNWR goods depot was still operational in the early 20th century I believe. I'm not at home at the mo, so I don't have my Pickfords books to hand to check the date. I'll check it for you next week. (If I forget give me a prod!)

An interesting fact about Haydon Square is that if you found yourself in Mitre Square and wanted to exit the City ASAP, that's pretty much where you'd find yourself. Church Street/Minories, just below Aldgate High Street and quite close to Goulston Street.

[caz]

I have pointed out how Lechmere may have suggested to Paul that they should tell whichever PC they found that there was a policeman present in Bucks Row. The idea would be to guarantee that they were not detained and could walk on to their working places with no further delay.

As I asked Abby, if Paul knew that Cross told Mizen a PC was already attending to Nichols, why did he complain in his newspaper account that the poor woman had been left alone on the street, dead and cold, while Mizen continued to knock up? He'd have been inviting Mizen to accuse both men of lying, wouldn't he?

Love,

Caz
X

[MrBarnett]

One other point that needs to be clarified was just how close or not Mother Lechmere was to Berner Street The impression can be that she is virtually next door (No that was the Kosminski's a few years earlier). However the reality is that depending on tbe route taken its at minimum of just over 200 yards away, or 300 yards at most. Yes it's still relatively close, However when one takes into account the geography of the murders, and the short distances involved, its not as close relatively as the impression people often get.


Steve

But Berner Street was very much on Lechmere's home turf, I'd have thought. The family lived in that part of St Geo E for 2/3 decades. CAL had grown up there - Mary Ann Street, Thomas (Pinchin Street), the north side of Cable Street, Jane Street.

The psychogeographical aspect of that intrigues me. As I mentioned before, when CAL was a boy the area delineated by Cable Street, Backchurch Lane, Commercial Road and Christian/Grove Streets contained the notorious Tiger Bay, focussed on Brunswick, Frederick, Henry and Everard Streets. By the 1880s the prostitutes had largely moved out and been replaced by poor Jewish immigrants.

[Elamarna]

My post was obviously tongue-in-cheek.

'Probably' didn't work on a Sunday?

I suspect CAL may well have carted horse flesh, and if he did, then 'probably' is probably right. But do we know that Broad Street Goods Station was either closed or handled less traffic on a Sunday? I know that LNWR men and others were agitating for a standard 6-day week in the late 19th century. And passenger trains certainly ran to and from the station 7 days a week.

Maybe they worked on a rota, or shorter hours? Without zolid evidence anything could have been the case i guess.

And while we on the subject of Broad Street, am I right in saying that Lechmere isn't actually recorded as saying he worked at that location for 20+ years? At the time he would have started working for Pickfofds they were also operating out of
Haydon Square in H Division and very close to Mitre Square. I once found a list of the names of Pickford's Haydon Square cricket team (some time in the 1860s from memory). No Cross or Lechmere listed unfortunately.

Tongue in cheek of not Gary, all issues which have to be addressed.

If he had been in the cricket team surely he cricket surely he would be some sort of mystery spinner, bamboozleing the authorities prior to the invention of the Googly.

Serious question Gary, do we k ow when Haydon Square closed?


Steve

[caz]

simply put el-all the other witnesses who discovered the body were first seen raising the alarm.

Lech is the only one seen near the body before he did. right at that moment-even if completely innocent, I find it odd.

Hi Abby,

If Lechmere thought Nichols was a tarpaulin at first, only realising it was a woman's body when he got closer, by which time Robert Paul was fast approaching, then what do you call what he did next, if not raising the alarm with Paul, who was all set to give him a wide berth and walk on by until Cross stopped him to come and assess the situation before they went on together to alert the nearest copper on their onward route to work?

I'd call that raising the alarm at the earliest opportunity. How could Cross possibly have done it any sooner, or before there was anyone to raise it with? He has to be proved the killer before he can be accused of tarrying at the scene and not raising the alarm. But in that case, he wouldn't have been intending to raise it, would he?

The man can't win, can he?

Love,

Caz
X

[MrBarnett]

Hi Gary,

One could also add that The Kosminski, lived closer to Berner street than mother Lechmere, and at one stage lived at # 38 ( of course we don't know if Aaron was there, or for that matter if he is "Kosminski"; but then of course we don't know Lechmere went to see his mum that night either.

And that "Short distancs away " is over a thousand yards, not really short at all. Two major roads to cross, so won't want to drwa attention, at lrast a ten minute walk, assuming he does not stop and sit to wipe his knife on the way.


His day off? Probably was, we know many probably did not work Sundays, including certain Slaughter men.


Steve

My post was obviously tongue-in-cheek.

'Probably' didn't work on a Sunday?

I suspect CAL may well have carted horse flesh, and if he did, then 'probably' is probably right. But do we know that Broad Street Goods Station was either closed or handled less traffic on a Sunday? I know that LNWR men and others were agitating for a standard 6-day week in the late 19th century. And passenger trains certainly ran to and from the station 7 days a week.


And while we on the subject of Broad Street, am I right in saying that Lechmere isn't actually recorded as saying he worked at that location for 20+ years? At the time he would have started working for Pickfofds they were also operating out of
Haydon Square in H Division and very close to Mitre Square. I once found a list of the names of Pickford's Haydon Square cricket team (some time in the 1860s from memory). No Cross or Lechmere listed unfortunately.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I just can’t buy the “he’d be too buggered after a hard days graft to go out killing” bit.

I guess I’ve known far to many that’d work darn hard, truck drivers, miners when most of it was by hand, labourers lugging 200lb bags of cement, etc. and still spend the night out on the booze and partying.

Accepted GUT but my point was more about timings. Being away from home and the wife at strange times and for longish stretches which might have given her cause for suspicion. Would she not think it strange that hubby gets in at 2.30 when he had to be out for work an hour later for eg?

[Herlock Sholmes]

If the police stopped someone for questioning in the immediate wake of a grisly murder at say 3.00am would they be particularly impressed with the explaination “I’m just on my way to paying my mum a visit?”

[caz]

Everyone does realize that if you think paul was never out of ear shot, then another explanation to the your wanted by a pc discrepency, is that paul heard lech say it and simply never said anything about it. Actually this goes for you too fish.

The more i think about it the more i think this is what could have happened, after a simple misunderstanding of course.

But Abby, if Paul heard Cross tell Mizen that he was wanted by a PC who was already with Nichols, why did he have such a public pop at the cop for his shameful negligence in leaving the poor woman dead and cold and all alone in the street while he continued to knock up?

Was Robert Paul even more of a liar than anyone thought? I still think Fish would be better off with Paul as his suspect: cunningly allows Cross to find his handiwork before returning to the scene himself, all innocence, feigning wariness at the situation; gets Cross to speak to the PC so his attention is not drawn to any blood on Paul; fails to come forward and is clearly hostile towards the police, giving that anti-police and anti-Mizen press interview; fails to attend the inquest initially and has to be tracked down later for questioning; could have been in or near Hanbury Street when Chapman is murdered.

Not looking good is it? If there's a photo of Paul anywhere looking shifty, he's your man. Cross was just his patsy.

Love,

Caz
X