Where does Joseph Fleming fit into the equation?

[DVV]

From this we might gather that between five and seven adult males stood taller than 6' 6", in 1888's East End.

But, judging from the news media attention that certain 6' 6" (+) giants seem to have received in the latter stages of the Victorian era, I would think that we could safely assume that no more than three to five adult males stood as tall a 6' 7", in London's East End of the late 1880's.

Thanks for that, Colin.
Out of these five giants (let's be generous), I wonder how many were weighting 11st and could work on the docks.

[Debra A]

Debra
Yes I know that was a distillation what you had established.
I recounted it to put in context for other readers how the various pieces of information on the records were collected.
I put your name at the top as you had highlighted that Fleming's true birth date was known (by another department within the City of London Union), and you will no doubt have noticed that this was seized on by others to suggest that the age given in the Stone Case Book was therefore an obvious and potentially correctable mistake. And you did not correct those assumptions which were based on your post.

You did suggest that Stone would have been informed of Fleming’s actual birthday. I gave reasons why this does not seem to have been the case.

If you will be drawn on these matters, you have also suggested that one reason he was unlikely to have been 6 feet 7 inches tall was that he had boots, a shirt, trousers and a coat when he was detained.
From time to time there would have been outsized poor people and I doubt they would have run around naked.
Why do you think it would have been prohibitively expensive for a man of 6 feet and 7 inches to kit himself out in clothing? Do you think it was impossible to add a bit of material to extend the legs or sleeves? Or for him to wear half mast trousers? Or to cut the toes off his shoes and fashion a rough cap.
If you think about it, being large would provide problems but ones that a tall person would be used to dealing with.

By the way, you have mentioned that you have seen military service records where heights are recorded in inches only as well as feet and inches, with mistakes such as one man being recorded as being 55 feet tall.
Are you able to illustrate any of the examples or give details of what sort of records these are?

I said "I find it hard to believe that Stone wasn't informed.
It was also just an opinion about the clothing issue as Fleming was well stocked clothing-wise, boots, even socks, waistcoat, overcoat shirt, trousers, braces-things we know other men of average height went without in the same neighbourhood (was it Timothy Donovan who appeared a the inquest of Annie Chapman without a shirt on?). His pay as a dock labourer wouldn't have made him well off and his records suggest he was a drinker- was there really enough exceptionally tall men's clothing available second hand in that area? That is my reason for thinking it may be in error.

Okay, if he was wearing short and half mast clothing as you say I can't counter that as we really have no way of knowing for sure- so what's the point in arguing over it?-it's your opinion that he might do that. Fair enough.

When I trawled through 150+ soldiers pension files I noticed that sometimes the heights were recorded in inches instead of feet and inches. As both methods were used it seems sensible to suppose that some medics were accustomed to measuring height in inches only and had the equipment to do that? No?


One soldier I looked at had a recorded height of 55 feet 99 inches- obviously a doubling up of figures . But that is his official pension record height.

[Debra A]

It would be interesting to see the dates on those letters.
So DVV, how do your think the City of London Union knew who to write to?

Give me a couple of hours to dig them out and I might be able to tell you. The address was correct on the envelope but the name was Henrietta Evans,later Fleming. I posted (pictures of) the envelopes somewhere before.

[DVV]

It would be interesting to see the dates on those letters.
So DVV, how do your think the City of London Union knew who to write to?

Yes, of course it would be interesting to see the dates.
For the time being, I just wanted to point out that if Fleming had given his real name, they wouldn't have written to Henrietta Evans.

As you said, Henrietta has been interviewed. Do you think they didn't ask her how old was his son ?

Anyway, if you are right that Evans/Fleming had mentioned his mother while he was "lucid", in 1893, it's rather odd that she said "insanity has long been in the family". She didn't help him much, it would seem. Just as he was about to be released.

How do I think they knew who to write to ?
I don't know.
Perhaps Fleming/Evans needed his mum and told them to call Henrietta Evans, mad as he was.

[DVV]

Hi Debs

When I trawled through 150+ soldiers pension files I noticed that sometimes the heights were recorded in inches instead of feet and inches. As both methods were used it seems sensible to suppose that some medics were accustomed to measuring height in inches only and had the equipment to do that? No?

Sensible, indeed.
How could one explain that, otherwise ?
Wait.
I'm sure Mike has the solution.

[Debra A]

City of London Union letter giving next of kin contact details for Fleming/Evans dated 4th July 1892. There is also a draft document dated 7th July with the same details.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs



Sensible, indeed.
How could one explain that, otherwise ?
Wait.
I'm sure Mike has the solution.

Hi D
I did contemplate the idea that all soldiers heights were maybe measured in inches and then converted to feet and inches but that some medics missed this step-giving the two types of recorded heights. It makes more sense to me that they either used both methods or they converted from inches to feet but some got missed sometimes-I can't see any practical reason why they would convert a feet and inches measurment into inches only.

[DVV]

Exactly Debs, that's why they had to have an equipment that measured in inches.

[Lechmere]

Debra
That docket dated 5th July 1892 is certainly interesting. I have just had to retype and delete stuff I was about to post…

They knew his mother’s address but had the wrong surname from the outset. The only person who could have provided these details was Evans/Fleming.
Yet when she appeared (presuming she did appear) at Stone at some time or another she gave the name Fleming.
The dates on the letters is still important.
It may help to establish when they realised his name was Fleming and not Evans. This is the salient point.
Why did it take the City of London Union so long to establish settlement – or lack thereof?
I will await the envelopes with interest…

It would also be interesting to see the letter that mentions Upper or Lower Thames Street with respect to Evans/Fleming. This potentially has a bearing on whether the City of London Union approached the City of London Police for information on Evans/Fleming, which in turn has obvious implications for whether any Joe Fleming bells would have been rung with the City Police.

The 55 feet and 99 inches is as you say an obvious doubling up that would not really confuse anyone – not really the same sort of thing as is suggested for Evans/Fleming.
Also the pension records would I suspect be compiled and filed – again quite different from the Stone Case Book.
I wonder what led you to look at the record of a soldier called Henry Kelly?

Measuring height in inches and converting to feet and inches certainly isn’t a normal thing to do.

The reason I brought up the clothing issue wasn’t to be argumentative with you – it was because whenever you make an off the cuff observation, some on hear seize on it as if it is proof of something. Your clothing observation, like your date of birth observation and your military height observation are all examples of this.

Colin
5 people that tall in the East End is more than I would have thought. If you include all of London there must have been a couple of dozen.

DVV
You need to recall that Evans/Fleming was 11 stone 8 pounds when he was first weighed – not 11 stone.
Also as he was picked up for acting in a mad manner it would be safe to assume that he had not been quite feeling himself lately and it is in turn likely that he had not been eating properly. Hence since he had last put a shift in at the docks he had probably lost weight.
However at 11 stone 8 pounds he would have been healthy enough – I recall seeing Peter Crouch tearing around White Hart Lane a few years ago like a greyhound that had slipped its lead.

[DVV]

Well, looks as if the name of Henrietta Evans was known as early as 5 July 1892.

And who, except Fleming/Evans, could refer to Mrs Evans ?

Bravo Debs

[Lechmere]

A caricature of a machine patented in 1886 for automatically measuring people's height... clearly in feet and inches.

Also is it graded to quite a bit over 6 feet...

[DVV]

DVV
You need to recall that Evans/Fleming was 11 stone 8 pounds when he was first weighed – not 11 stone.
Also as he was picked up for acting in a mad manner it would be safe to assume that he had not been quite feeling himself lately and it is in turn likely that he had not been eating properly.

No, it doesn't work.
If he had lost weight prior to being committed to the asylum, we should expect him to increase his weight as he constantly "slept well, ate well, worked well".
But on the contrary, his already ridiculous weight tended to decrease - down to 11st - and still : slept well, ate well, worked well, good health.

Conclusion : his weight had most probably always been around 11 or 12 st.
And Peter Crouch isn't a dock labourer.

[Lechmere]

DVV
you have touching faith in the level of patient care in Victorian asylums.

[DVV]

Of course, lunatics found wandering the streets take much more care of themselves.
Have a look at Isenchmid pictures.

[Debra A]

Below is a description of the full contents of the City of London Orders of Removal file for Joseph Fleming alias James Evans.
I had misremembered there being addressed envelopes in Flemings file-that was in Jacob Levy's file.

• First page Named as James Evans Justice of he peace and surgeon examination declaration. 'Joseph Fleming alias' added above the name James Evans. dated 4th July 1892, Justice Room Guildhall
  
• Second page City of London Union Order of Reception of a Pauper Lunatic or Lunatic wandering at large-Named as James Evans only
  
• Transfer expense form from Guildhall to Stone for James Evans
  
• Statement of particulars giving personal details of name age last address etc.-Dated 4th July 1892 Named as James Evans only. Name of relative given as Mother- Henrietta Fleming [ address detail for her has been corrected from 261 Nile Street to 216 Bleytons buildings East Rd].
  
• Cerificate of medical practitioner. Dated 2nd July 1892 Named as James Evans
  
• Letter from relieving officer to Board of Guardians dated 4th July . Named as James Evans .Mother's name given as Henerieta Evans 261 Nile St.
  
• City of London Union draft letter addressed to Mrs H Evans 261 Nile St St Luke, dated 7 July 1892 informing her that her 'husband' [crossed out and 'son' added over top] was being transfered to Stone.
  
• Letter from C LU relief officer dated 5th July 1892. 8/- belonging to James Evans deposited with treasurer.
  
• Clothing and belongings inventory receipt of James Evans articles dated 5th July 1892
  
• Order of removal. several pages.Named as Joseph Fleming alias James Evans. Dated 19th October 1893
• Settlement examination report .Named as Joseph Fleming alias James Evans.Dated 17th October 1893 His birthdate,baptism date and parents details are included in this report. Parents address given as 216 Bleytons Buildings, Nile Street, East Rd. [Given the number and that both addresses for Henrietta of 261 Nile St and later 216 Bleytons Buildings Nile Street East Rd is it possible that 261 Nile Street was an incorrect address and Henrietta may never have recieved any of communications about her son originally?]
  
• Letter dated 8th November [it looks like 1891 but must be 1893 as settlement depositions were taken in Oct 1893] headed Bethnal Green Board of Guardians asking for deposiions of Fleming's case to be forwarded as the writer hasn't had time to look at it yet and includes the paragraph:
  
  "Will you also kindly let me know by bearer in what parish 70 [and a half] Lower Thames Stree is siuated in." signed J Shen.[There is nothing to show this inquiry related to any address associated with Fleming/Evans.]
  
• Adjudication letter headed Frederick William Crane Clerk and Superintendent Registrar dated 24th November 1893.Named as Joseph Fleming alias James Evans.Maintenance transfered to Bethnal Green from 16th October 1893. Addressed to Stone asylum.
  
• Letter from City of London Infirmary Bow Rd daed 27th Nov 1893.Named as Joseph Fleming alias James Evans. His clothing and belongings forwarded to Bethnal Green.