Where does Joseph Fleming fit into the equation?

[DVV]

Fish,

There's a point on which I have to disagree with Ben : keep posting in bold, it makes your mistakes even more visible and obvious.

How likely is a man from the working classes to be 6'7 tall in 1888 ?

How likely is a 6'7 tall guy to weight 11 stone ?

How likely is such a thin guy to work as a dock labourer ?

How likely is such a freakish figure to go absolutely unnoticed ?

How likely is such a freakish appearance to be unrelated to his mental health and to prompt no comment, not a single word, from medical staff ?

David
Delighted

[Fisherman]

DVV:

There's a point on which I have to disagree with Ben : keep posting in bold, it makes your mistakes even more visible and obvious.

It makes ANYTHING I write more obvious, actually.

How likely is a man from the working classes to be 6'7 tall in 1888 ?

Not very likely. There would probably be less than one in a thousand people of that height.

How likely is a 6'7 tall guy to weight 11 stone ?

Couldnīt say. Itīs underweight, but only mildly so, according to the WHO.

How likely is such a thin guy to work as a dock labourer ?

Once again hard to say. His height could have been an advantage, and since he was only mildly thin and of good bodily healt, I should think he could do lots of work. Peter Crouch, once again, runs around ten kilometers each game he plays, he jumps, he tackles ... There is also the fact that we do not know why and how he was enlistes as a dock labourer - his best friend could have been in charge. I seriously believe that we must take all possibilities into account.
Not that this must have been so, since we have men like Crouch to show us that heaps of physical strenght may be dug out of a mildly thin body. Plus we donīt know what he weighed at the docks - we know what he weighed at the asylum. And that weight fluctuated somewhat during his asylum time.

How likely is such a freakish figure to go absolutely unnoticed ?

Totally unlikely. He must have attracted much attention. Very tall people normally do.

How likely is such a freakish appearance to be unrelated to his mental health and to prompt no comment, not a single word, from medical staff ?

Ugh, thatīs a hard one. The medical staff DID take his height down. After that, what would you expect them to do? Write that he was uncommonly tall? That was already taken down.
And why would his height be related to his mental health in the first place? Do you have conclusive evidence that this may have been so?

Fisherman

[DVV]

How likely is a 6'7 tall guy to weight 11 stone ?

Couldnīt say. Itīs underweight, but only mildly so, according to the WHO.

Ah, this "mildly" again.
70 kilos for more than two meters, that's a real stockfish.
I'm about 12 stone for 5ft11 and am already considered something between thin and "normal".
A 6'7 guy weighting 11 stone would be considered strikingly and shockingly thin by every people he would have met.

How likely is such a freakish figure to go absolutely unnoticed ?

Totally unlikely. He must have attracted much attention. Very tall people normally do.

Right. It's even more than "very tall" for the 19th century.
However, nobody said anything about that more than remarkable height. They talk about his trade, his behaviour, his story with Mary, but not a single word about his height. And nobody has ever seen Mary with him, although the police did interview her friends, people working in pubs, etc.

How likely is such a freakish appearance to be unrelated to his mental health and to prompt no comment, not a single word, from medical staff ?

Ugh, thatīs a hard one. The medical staff DID take his height down. After that, what would you expect them to do? Write that he was uncommonly tall? That was already taken down.
And why would his height be related to his mental health in the first place? Do you have conclusive evidence that this may have been so?

I have. For example, dwarves are nasty when they're more than seven.

[Fisherman]

DVV: Ah, this "mildly" again.
70 kilos for more than two meters, that's a real stockfish.
I'm about 12 stone for 5ft11 and am already considered something between thin and "normal".
A 6'7 guy weighting 11 stone would be considered strikingly and shockingly thin by every people he would have met.

Yes, the exact same way that James Stewart and Gwyneth Paltrow are considered strikingly and shockingly thin by everybody who see them. And Victoria Beckham. And Peter Crouch. And a good deal more people.
And the "mildly" - once again - is not my expression. I stick with the largest health organization in the world, the WHO, and they say that Evans/Fleming was mildly thin. You can have a look at the net, and you will find that there are lots and lots of discussion sites where this topic is brought up. And heaps of people confess to lower or much lower values than 17.3, yet they claim that they feel just fine. BMI, you see, is not a very useful tool for measuring health on a general scale. The countries in the world display wildly varying ranges of BMI values, the countries with the lowest average BMI:s ending up under 20, whereas the countries with the highest averages score well over 30. And thatīs because people differ bodyframewise. It does not mean that these countries are having serious health issues because they have too may skinny or fat people, respectively.
And whaddayaknow - it is not just the countries that differ inbetween them, the people IN these countries ALSO differ inbetween them. And that is because there are some people who have smaller frames and others who have bigger frames, because some people will easily put on heavy muscles whereas others will not. Etcetera, etcetera.

And believe me, the extremes are NOT to be found in the "mildly thin" category. Nor are they to be found in the moderately thin group. It is not until you arrive at the severely thin that you find them. there are BMI values so low that nobody can arrive at them without being unhealthy. But they do not spell 17.3! Many, many people can arrive at that figure without any jeopardy at all to their overall health, they can live long productive lives and work away very satisfactorily.

There is a reason that the WHO call people ranging from 17 to 18.5 "mildly thin", David. And that reason is not a concern to hurt their feeling if they were to reveal that they are instead severely thin. They are not - that is another catogory, separated from the mildly thin by yet ANOTHER category.

Right. It's even more than "very tall" for the 19th century.

Very tall, David, is very tall. The worldīs tallest man is very tall. So is the Eiffel tower.

However, nobody said anything about that more than remarkable height. They talk about his trade, his behaviour, his story with Mary, but not a single word about his height.

Who would you have expected to mention the height? Barnett and Venturney, who apparently never saw the man?

And nobody has ever seen Mary with him, although the police did interview her friends, people working in pubs, etc.

And have you seen those interviews? Do you know that they donīt say that the man Kelly dated was a very tall man? Of course people saw and noticed him if he was around. But even if they did, why would we know about it today, if these people were not even at the inquest?

I have. For example, dwarves are nasty when they're more than seven.

There, you see - you had no conclusive evidence, just as we both know. You resort to jokes again, something you excel at at times. But no matter how funny a guy you are, it helps your rash and faulty assessments very little.

All the best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

And have you seen those interviews? Do you know that they donīt say that the man Kelly dated was a very tall man? Of course people saw and noticed him if he was around. But even if they did, why would we know about it today, if these people were not even at the inquest?

Fisherman[/B]

You seem to resort to jokes as well, Fish.

What did Mrs McCarthy say about the remarkable height of MJK fiancé ?
Nothing.

What did Barnett say ?
Nothing.

What did Venturney say ?
Nothing.

What do the Stone records say ?
Nothing.
It's as if they're talking of, say, a 5'7 tall guy.
No mention of any thinness, even when his weight decreases, nothing about him being underweight. Which he was.

No article either about a giant working on the docks, or wandering the East End, although there were some journalists ferreting about, if I'm not mistaken.

Truly, this talented giant went unnoticed.

Cheers

[Fisherman]

DVV:

You seem to resort to jokes as well, Fish.

Me? No, Iīm not half as funny as you are.

What did Mrs McCarthy say about the remarkable height of MJK fiancé ?
Nothing.

Nope - and she is the only one who seemingly stands some sort of chance to have seen the man. And she was not at the inquest.

What did Barnett say ?
Nothing.

Oh yes - he says that Kelly had spoken of a man to him. meaning that he had heard about Fleming but never met him, apparently.

What did Venturney say ?
Nothing.

... and itīs the same story there.

What do the Stone records say ?
Nothing.

Oh, but they do - they say he was 6 ft 7.

It's as if they're talking of, say, a 5'7 tall guy.
No mention of any thinness, even when his weight decreases, nothing about him being underweight. Which he was.

Do you see any of the records mentioning underweight on behalf of men in good bodily health? I donīt think so. Do they comment on weight issues, generally speaking? Do they nail the obese? Do they speak of exceptionally short people?

No article either about a giant working on the docks, or wandering the East End, although there were some journalists ferreting about, if I'm not mistaken.

Truly, this talented giant went unnoticed.

Once again, no he did not. But the observations, the ooohs and the aaahs were not taken down and left for posterity. All very simple, Iīm afraid. Plus I donīt think that 6 ft 7 would necessarily pave the way to newspaper coverage. My oldest boyīs friend is 209 centimeters, and I fail to see any journalists waiting at his doorstep. No articles, no coverage whatsoever, just the odd notation in hospital journals that he is that tall. He is thin too, has very little body fat, and it would not surprise me if he is around 17.3. I must remember to ask sometime. If he has that low a BMI I will tell him that you consider him a freak.
Or will his height be enough to establish that?

The best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

You seem to resort to jokes as well, Fish.

Me? No, Iīm not half as funny as you are.

True. But I would let nobody say you're a sad-looking clown.

What did Mrs McCarthy say about the remarkable height of MJK fiancé ?
Nothing.

Nope - and she is the only one who seemingly stands some sort of chance to have seen the man. And she was not at the inquest.

Anyway she talked. Of Fleming. And didn't bother to mention the giant he was. As we know, that sort of detail doesn't interest the papers. They hate sensationalism.

What did Barnett say ?
Nothing.

Oh yes - he says that Kelly had spoken of a man to him. meaning that he had heard about Fleming but never met him, apparently.

How convincing. Which would mean he knew Fleming's trade, his address years ago, the fact that he used to visit Mary, that she was fond of him.... But his height was a taboo. Hush hush !

What did Venturney say ?
Nothing.

... and itīs the same story there.

Exactly. As we all know, girls never describe the physical appearance of their boyfriends.

It's as if they're talking of, say, a 5'7 tall guy.
No mention of any thinness, even when his weight decreases, nothing about him being underweight. Which he was.

Do you see any of the records mentioning underweight on behalf of men in good bodily health? I donīt think so. Do they comment on weight issues, generally speaking? Do they nail the obese? Do they speak of exceptionally short people?

Well, they took the pain to describe his tongue.
And not a mention of his height ? his incredible petercrouch-like thinness ?

No article either about a giant working on the docks, or wandering the East End, although there were some journalists ferreting about, if I'm not mistaken.

Truly, this talented giant went unnoticed.

Once again, no he did not. But the observations, the ooohs and the aaahs were not taken down and left for posterity. All very simple, Iīm afraid. Plus I donīt think that 6 ft 7 would necessarily pave the way to newspaper coverage. My oldest boyīs friend is 209 centimeters, and I fail to see any journalists waiting at his doorstep. No articles, no coverage whatsoever, just the odd notation in hospital journals that he is that tall. He is thin too, has very little body fat, and it would not surprise me if he is around 17.3. I must remember to ask sometime. If he has that low a BMI I will tell him that you consider him a freak.
Or will his height be enough to establish that?

Forgive the LVP people, Fish.
They were fascinated by 6'6 tall men and bearded women.


Cheers

[Wickerman]

What did Mrs McCarthy say about the remarkable height of MJK fiancé ?
Nothing.

What did Barnett say ?
Nothing.

What did Venturney say ?
Nothing.

Dave, would you care to remind us which of the above actually met Fleming?

[DVV]

After all, this thread isn't specifically dedicated to Fleming's average height, so we can move on.

As we know, Joseph Fleming was referred to at the inquest by two witnesses : Barnett and Venturney.

And in the press by Mrs Carthy.

However, he did not show up, although he was living in the area.

Did the police tried to trace him ? We don't know. If they did, that was with no result.

Fleming had a family. Sisters, mother, father.

They had certainly known Mary Kelly, since Fleming was once about to marry her. But none of them talked to the press.
They obviously were no publicity seekers.

And once poor Joseph had been caged in the loony bin, what did his mother say ?

"Oh, sure, he's really mad. Males are mad for 160 (oups!) years in that family."

My own mother, in such a situation, would have argued that I merely drink too much, and that all would soon be ok.

Henrietta said : "Keep taking care of him" instead, despite the frightful reputation of the asylums at that time.

Any thoughts ?

[DVV]

Dave, would you care to remind us which of the above actually met Fleming?

No, Jon. I don't care. They were repeating what they heard from Mary. If you think Mary never mentioned his incredible height, good enough.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

No, Jon. I don't care. They were repeating what they heard from Mary. If you think Mary never mentioned his incredible height, good enough.

Cheers

Mentioning his height is not the same as making an issue out of it.

What do you think "described" referred to?

(Barnett)
"....but she described a man named Joseph Fleming, who came to Pennington-street, a bad house, where she stayed. I don't know when this was. She was very fond of him. He was a mason's plasterer, and lodged in the Bethnal-green-road."

It appears Mary said something about this other Joe that concerned his appearance.

[Observer]

As we know, Joseph Fleming was referred to at the inquest by two witnesses : Barnett and Venturney.

And in the press by Mrs Carthy.

However, he did not show up, although he was living in the area.

Did the police tried to trace him ? We don't know. If they did, that was with no result.

The police made sure they traced Edward Stanley, Annie Chapman's beau. Same police officers, I'd say they traced Fleming.

[DVV]

The police made sure they traced Edward Stanley, Annie Chapman's beau. Same police officers, I'd say they traced Fleming.

I'd say they might have tried to. At least I hope. Unless they were too busy with Hutch and Astrakan.

[Wickerman]

.... Unless they were too busy with Hutch and Astrakan.

That's more like it.

[DVV]

Interesting, Jon, isn't it ?
You know what I mean, I know you disagree, but anyway, that IS interesting.