Where does Joseph Fleming fit into the equation?

[Lechmere]

I found this new picture of Fleming in the archives. He played an early version of Football known as 'Winkies' guesting for the College team alongside M J Druitt (to his left).

[DVV]

Also, the police did have access to the asylum records so the fact Fleming was identified by two names (Fleming/Evans) might suggest he had nothing to hide from them, in particular?

Hi Jon,

a man who has been named at the inquest, who was the victim's lover, who used to visit her, to ill-use her out of jealousy, and who never came forward.... has nothing to hide ?

Maybe so, but that's not exactly what his behaviour does suggest.

Cheers

[Fisherman]

Be careful out there, Fish...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...h-8755664.html

Thanks, Sally - I read about that one in my own newspaper. Apparently, it did the rounds in papers worldwide.

Myself, I´ve been fishing for salmon in Norway. And going to Norway takes balls, given the prices over there, so I´m happy to say I managed to stay away from any below-the belt attacks.

In Norway, that is.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sally]

I´ve been away fishing

Be careful out there, Fish...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...h-8755664.html

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman,

These limericks of yours are definitely getting there. I hope you have plenty more!

There once was a fellow named Christer
From Googling, his fingers did blister.
Teamed up with Ed Stow
Over Lechmere, and lo!
He’s the ultimate logic-resistor.

Remember young Toppy the plumber?
Never once a Commercial Street slummer.
Nor was he that witness
Of Astrakhan sh!tness
Crossmerians say “What a bummer!”

We might all recall Frank Leander.
Thanks to Fisherman, did he meander?
Oh continue to dream
Swedish Handwriting Team
But Sue’s expertise is the grander.

All in good sport, Fishster.

All the best,
Ben

Thanks, Ben!

Here´s a small flurry in return (I´ve been away fishing, so you need to excuse my tardiness!)

A stripperologist by the name of Ben
stripped a foot of James Evans when
he realized his dream
had no functioning seam -
that´s how it goes in the Hutchinson den.

It´s a world where no logic applies
it disappears before your very eyes!
Feet and inches go lost
since at every cost
all but Hutch must say their bye-byes!

To reach this illusive goal
Some are ready to walk on hot coal.
to slander the expertise
and then simply go: Please,
let´s instead accept a great big hole!

It´s the Iremonger twaddle I mean
to accept it would have been
to invest in a fairytale
where the author managed to fail
to pin down what it was she had seen...!

Minor flaw, blurts Ben with great rage
(he has learnt such things on the stage)
Go away foul Leander!
You only deserve slander!
Then he turn´s to his script´s only page:

It´was Hutch who dun´it, I swear!
Does anybody want to challenge that? I dare
you to try and disagree
with someone like me!
Those who´ve tried and survived are quite rare!

Let him throw out his challenges, I say
it means nothing at the end of the day
what there is to be found
will be dug out of the ground -
and not cursed out the Hutchinsonian way...


All, as you say Ben, in good sport!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Wickerman]

Had he come forward right after the murder, or in the following week(s), this would certainly have been reported.

One source, I think it was L.P. Curtis in his book about, JtR & the London Press, 2001, wrote that during the murders press hounds took a seat at the local station houses ready to pounce on the next 'story' that walked in the door. The press were certainly hungry for anything related to the murders, so yes, very likely they would have uncovered Fleming.

I'm encouraged that you adopt this view, and that you are not alone. Because, quite naturally the logic works the same for anyone of high profile who walks in the door of a station house.

This has been a significant point I raised previously concerning a witness who might have been deemed to have lied after first giving the police his statement.
Had any important witness been found out as a liar they would have hauled them back in for questioning. The fact no second interview was reported for our most controversial witness in the Kelly case are a good indication that no such accusations existed.

Fact is that there is nothing in the press, and nothing in the remaining files.
So, that he has slipped through the net is the most reasonable conclusion on can draw.
And it's not surprising, really not. He was a perfect nobody, of average height, dossing in a large lodging house, as far as we can tell.

It isn't unusual for anyone who chooses to adopt a different name, to adopt more than one.
Also, the police did have access to the asylum records so the fact Fleming was identified by two names (Fleming/Evans) might suggest he had nothing to hide from them, in particular?

He's an interesting enigma, though with nothing to accuse him of, he's likely to remain that way.
Unless, some unscrupulous types decide to 'do a number on him' too

[DVV]

Had he come forward right after the murder, or in the following week(s), this would certainly have been reported.
Fact is that there is nothing in the press, and nothing in the remaining files.
So, that he has slipped through the net is the most reasonable conclusion on can draw.
And it's not surprising, really not. He was a perfect nobody, of average height, dossing in a large lodging house, as far as we can tell.

[Wickerman]

Jon, as Ben has pointed out, if they had found Fleming, some papers would have reported the fact. They would even have interviewed his mother and sister.
And if he had been found months after the murder, which btw I don't believe for a second, nothing easier than providing an alibi : November 9 ? I slept in the VH, as usual. Or elsewhere. No need to say he was roaming the streets after a long walk from Romford.
How could the police prove his guilt ?

But we can safely assume they never collared him. And that he didn't come forward because he did not wish to.

Dave.

No problem there, but not coming forward to the police does not mean he had anything to do with the murder.
There can be any number of reason's a mature East End male avoids the police; debts, theft, assaults, gambling, anything.

On the other hand, how confident are you that if he had come forward voluntarily, that he could not have done so without the press learning about it?

[Sally]

I agree.

No chasing after 'Morganstone' - he'd have been calling himself Felix by then - and if Fleming was using an alias; or had simply moved on - how likely is it that the police could have identified him easily?

He was already semi-itinerarant - a lifestyle that lends itself to anonymity still; and more so then.

I concur that if Fleming - or Morgantern had been located, as ex-lovers of the latest victim of the Ripper the press would've been desperate to hear their story.

The resounding silence that we have instead is a fair indication that neither man was located.

[DVV]

Or, he had an alibi?

Jon, as Ben has pointed out, if they had found Fleming, some papers would have reported the fact. They would even have interviewed his mother and sister.
And if he had been found months after the murder, which btw I don't believe for a second, nothing easier than providing an alibi : November 9 ? I slept in the VH, as usual. Or elsewhere. No need to say he was roaming the streets after a long walk from Romford.
How could the police prove his guilt ?

But we can safely assume they never collared him. And that he didn't come forward because he did not wish to.

[Wickerman]

True, Jon.
And they seemingly didn't find him.

Or, he had an alibi?

[DVV]

Part of the police investigation would have been to locate Fleming and see if he had an alibi for that night.

True, Jon.
And they seemingly didn't find him.

[DVV]

A thought did occur to me that what Prater heard was not a cry of "Murder!" but a Kelly, groggy with sleep, awaking and saying, "Morgen?"
Phil

Thoughts occur, and some are best forgotten.

[Wickerman]

As for flying into a rage, no-one heard enraged voices that night.

Certainly Barnett and MJK had furious rows, if the broken window panes say anything.

A row which, by coincidence, just happens to break one pane of glass within reach of the door latch, as opposed to all the other panes, may only suggest one of them misplaced the key and broke the pane intentionally.

But arguments can come in many forms - and perhaps the killer "snapped" when away from her (I'm assuming here "Jack" did not kill MJK), returneds urreptitiously and knew enough to get in - opening the door through the pane, to avoid waking her.

Certainly we can make it happen any way we choose. Though, if he crept in to her room while she was asleep, would he role or fold the bedsheet up before he kills her?
We might expect to see the sheet ruffled & bloodied on the floor, not rolled up and put aside.
Likely too cold that night for Kelly to only sleep in her chemise, with no sheets over her?

A thought did occur to me that what Prater heard was not a cry of "Murder!" but a Kelly, groggy with sleep, awaking and saying, "Morgen?"

Certainly we read this was a common cry heard in the area, but we do not read if this cry was uttered by victims or by witnesses to assaults.
It comes across as too theatrical to be cried by a victim. If a nosy neighbor, too frightened to come forward, had peeked through the window and saw something and 'cried out', that would fit nicely.

Part of the police investigation would have been to locate Fleming and see if he had an alibi for that night.

[DVV]

Ben, I'm afraid your post is excellent, and demonstrably so.