Where does Joseph Fleming fit into the equation?

[caz]

I dont get the whole such and such knife wounds indicate a personal aspect to a murder. All murder by knife is personal. whether victim and killer knew each other or not.

Its fantasy and dime store pychology. same as the concept of copy cat killing.

But worse than that it also obcures the true meaning behind why a certain type of wound is inflicted. I think it would behoove people to research murder that involved facial mutilations to see if the killer confessed to there motivation behind doing it. I think that would shed some true meaning to the quetion why in this particular case, the ripper murders ,that it may have been done.

i think you will find the reason is more along the line that the killer was bat **** crazy and had some wacky reason for doing it or for the simple fact that it gave them pleasure.

You won't get far round here, Abby, talking sense.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

There would obviously be no practical reason for a boyfriend to try and disguise/destroy her identity in her own room, then leave her there. AND So I'm just wondering how it could be both an emotional need to utterly destroy the woman who had wronged him, and a practical need to match, nay surpass, the goriest details in the papers.

Which just shows that you still don't understand what I am saying. I don't think you want to.

Phil

That's why I wanted someone to take me through the murder itself and the damage inflicted, and explain where they think it shows the killer had been intimate with his victim, or where it reflects what he could have read in the papers. One or t'other or both, I'm not fussed.

I do appreciate what you said about being open to multiple possibilities, but this is all within your speculation that someone other than Jack killed Kelly - which means someone who knew her and 'ill-used' her to the extreme because she had 'ill-used' him in some way, or a copy cat who had some other motive for wanting this particular woman dead.

I'm trying to explore the possibilities here, but I'm not sure I find any of them very workable without more help from the people putting them forward.

Love,

Caz
X

[Phil H]

I'm trying to explore the possibilities here, but I'm not sure I find any of them very workable without more help from the people putting them forward.

Often, to understand an new idea (in any walk of life, not just Ripperology) I find it helps to be empathetic to it. That maybe is why you "don't get it".

Anyway I have done all the explaining I intend to do.

I wouldn't mind so much if anyone could take me through the scenario they can envisage, from before the attack to the moment the killer leaves the room, explaining when he is in blame-shifting mode and when he is responding to his own vengeful feelings. But nobody ever does.

Because, to do so (as you well know) would be fiction, and I am not here to write fiction.

And the crossness or name-calling is not coming from me.

Phil

[curious]

i think you will find the reason is more along the line that the killer was bat **** crazy and had some wacky reason for doing it or for the simple fact that it gave them pleasure.

Hi, Abby,
Would curiosity be a wacky-enough reason?

I can almost see curiosity there in that little room in Millers Court, a person obsessed with wanting to know what the inards of a human body really look like. That's why flesh was taken off the bones and the body parts all removed. What's under here?

He had time to take a human body apart, maybe that is why the murders stopped -- he had finally gotten his questions answered so he could move on to another obsession.

Just a wild guess or wondering. . .

curious

[Fisherman]

Hi, Abby,
Would curiosity be a wacky-enough reason?

I can almost see curiosity there in that little room in Millers Court, a person obsessed with wanting to know what the inards of a human body really look like. That's why flesh was taken off the bones and the body parts all removed. What's under here?

He had time to take a human body apart, maybe that is why the murders stopped -- he had finally gotten his questions answered so he could move on to another obsession.

Just a wild guess or wondering. . .

curious

Ever heard about Robert Ackermann, the cannibal of Vienna? He should be of much interest to you! Just like you, he as curious - bit in rather a different manner.

All the best,
Fisherman

[curious]

Ever heard about Robert Ackermann, the cannibal of Vienna? He should be of much interest to you! Just like you, he as curious - bit in rather a different manner.

All the best,
Fisherman

I was thinking of an article in The New Independent Review about the Florence Venus and wondering if someone had seen a Florence Venus and then "needed" to know what a woman really looked like.

curious

[Fisherman]

I was thinking of an article in The New Independent Review about the Florence Venus and wondering if someone had seen a Florence Venus and then "needed" to know what a woman really looked like.

curious

True beauty comes from the inside, huh ...?

But honestly, Ackerman makes the case for you. He was apparently fuelled by nothing but curiosity as he cut away.

Fisherman

[curious]

True beauty comes from the inside, huh ...?

But honestly, Ackerman makes the case for you. He was apparently fuelled by nothing but curiosity as he cut away.

Fisherman

He does indeed.

Thanks,

curious

[The Good Michael]

I posited the idea many years ago that JTR was looking for something, like a scent or a feeling perhaps from his childhood, and after slaughtering MJK and finding that he couldn't recall that moment even after a few hours (perhaps) of butchery, he despaired and killed himself or went off the deep end...er, deeper end. It was sort of a story idea.

Mike

[caz]

I'm trying to explore the possibilities here, but I'm not sure I find any of them very workable without more help from the people putting them forward.

Often, to understand an new idea (in any walk of life, not just Ripperology) I find it helps to be empathetic to it. That maybe is why you "don't get it".

I would think it's the other way round, Phil. To be empathetic to an idea, one must be able to understand it first, then appreciate its appeal - assuming it has any, which is entirely down to its originator. Understanding does not equal accepting it, or even "getting it", if the idea has little to recommend it beneath the surface. But be of good cheer, because at least I am open to your new ideas, or believe me I would ignore them rather than spend a moment exploring them with you or anyone else.

I wouldn't mind so much if anyone could take me through the scenario they can envisage, from before the attack to the moment the killer leaves the room, explaining when he is in blame-shifting mode and when he is responding to his own vengeful feelings. But nobody ever does.

Because, to do so (as you well know) would be fiction, and I am not here to write fiction.

But it's all fiction anyway, dressed up as speculation, so if you are here to speculate that Kelly may not have been a ripper victim, and/or may have known her killer, and are not pulling this out of a hat just for jolly, you must have interpreted the crime scene in a way that would offer support for either premise: reading the papers and going over the top to mimic Jack, or instinctively destroying a love gone bad. Entirely up to you, of course, if you prefer not to explain your reasoning in much more depth than gut feeling level.

Love,

Caz
X

[Scott Nelson]

I posited the idea many years ago that JTR was looking for something, like a scent or a feeling perhaps from his childhood, and after slaughtering MJK and finding that he couldn't recall that moment even after a few hours (perhaps) of butchery, he despaired and killed himself or went off the deep end...

Yes, I've always thought this myself.

[Phil H]

Have it your own way caz. It is clear that you can never be wrong? So why continue the discussion. You are right, I concede it, bow to your superior intellect, reasoning power and sheer goodness and quit the field leaving it you you as conqueror.

I remain your humble and obedient servant (and if you believe any of that you'll believe anything)

Phil

[Phil H]

Double post - my apologies.

[Paddy]

A Thought?

I have sometimes wondered if the Batty street murder may have affected Jack in some way. If Strides' murderer did shout Lipski, maybe he associated himself with Israel Lipski or knew him?

Pat.........................

[Scott Nelson]

I believe this was Sugden's contention as well, that the person who shouted "Lipski" was associating himself with Israel Lipski.