Where does Joseph Fleming fit into the equation?

[Sally]

Oh, just found this:

"The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders or DSM considers a body weight below 85 percent of the norm to indicate anorexia nervosa. This correlates to a BMI of around 17.5, according to Marcia Herrin, author of "Nutrition Counseling in the Treatment of Eating Disorders."

Well, that settles it then. Fleming was anorexic. Of course! That explains why there are so many references to his eating habits in his medical notes.

It's a beautiful solution...

[The Good Michael]

Peter Crouch has anorexia? I didn't know that. I kind of thought that, genetically speaking, there are many possibilities for body types and that 'healthy' can fall into vast ranges of size and weight. My mistake.

Mike

[Ben]

Peter Crouch is 11 stone and 8 pounds, which would give him a BMI of 18.2. While this would make him physically very unusual, and an obvious extreme of height and weight, he would not meet the criterion for an "anorexic" weight as outlined in the quote above. If we accept the Stone Asylum entry as accurate, however, then Fleming's BMI of 17.3 most assuredly would. That's 8 whole pounds (the equivalent of a decent sized carp) less than Crouch.

That explains why there are so many references to his eating habits in his medical notes.

Never thought of that, Sally! Case closed.

[Fisherman]

Ben:

A BMI index of 16 is dangerously thin, as acknowledged by all sources.

... but for the WHO, then - they say that it is when you come close to the 15.0 BMI it´s time to speak to the doctor.
So much for "all sources".

I challenge you to look at person that thin, and decide for yourself if they appear only "moderately" so, and be honest.

Aha. Well, I couldn´t care less, since Fleming/Evans was NOT 16.0 but instead 17.3 - mildly thin, that is. And since the 17-18.5 group follows directly on the "normal" group, it would be strange if they were nOT mildly thin. It stands to reason, at least in my world.

The World Health Organisation is required, for obvious reasons, to be restrained in their terminology (they can't call people emaciated, gaunt, skinny phuckers), but that doesn't mean we should misinterpret it in so hideous a fashion.

Don´t make me laugh, Ben. Mildly thin is where you have James Stewart, Jennifer Aniston, Peter Crouch etc - and they aer not exactly skinny phuckers, are they?

Remember that anyone with a BMI index of 18.5 or lower is already considered a potential health concern, and is advised to consult his or her doctor...

Is that so? I thought the WHO said that it was when nearing 15.0 you should call your doctor. So it´s time to send your suggestion to the doc - it´s worn VERY thin by now.

So regrettably for your argument, "moderately thin" equates to dangerously thin and anorexic, in medical terms.

No, it does not. It CAN be dangerous, but some people are very comfortable at these weights.

Don't shoot the messenger; I didn't invent the term - just exercise a little more caution in future when picking fights that are based purely on semantics.

There is no fight. There never was. Courtesy of the WHO and some sense. No selective reading will ever change that.

Well you do what you like.

True, true.

I'm going to defend it's "questionableness", and argue for same, for as long as the counters to the contrary keep coming - until the pages on this thread number in their thousands if necessary. There were two highly questionable uses of the number 6 on the document, and that is noteworthy, irrespective of whichever doctor or registrar wrote them.

Yawn.


"Riddled" with mistakes, you said.

Riddled with them.

And he got lots of things "terribly wrong", you said.

Double-yawn.

Fisherman

[DVV]

Why is Crouch so famous ?
Because people are amazed by his height, his thinness, and the fact that he's a professional player, despite his extraordinary appearance.

Fleming would be even more amazing for Eastenders of 1888. But not a word about it. Nothing from MJK, nothing from Mrs McCarthy, nothing from the medics.

Keep calling Peter Crouch for help, gentlemen.

It just proves how wrong you are.

[DVV]

Peter Crouch has anorexia?
Mike

Yes. And an Aston Martin DB9.

[Fisherman]

Ben:

Oh, just found this:

"The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders or DSM considers a body weight below 85 percent of the norm to indicate anorexia nervosa. This correlates to a BMI of around 17.5, according to Marcia Herrin, author of "Nutrition Counseling in the Treatment of Eating Disorders."

I´m sure you can find any number of interenet sites that have gotten it wrong. Luckily, this one has got it a bit more right than some, in stating that there may be an indication of anorexia when we drop far down in BMI values.
But if you take the time to read up on what Anorexia IS, you will realize that it is a disease where the patient will not take enough food to sustain a functioning weight.

And a lot of people - by far the most - in the mildly thin segment WILL take food. Their bodily disposition is just of the kind that will settle for a thin appearance.

If you were right, then James Stewart would have been an anorectic, for example. He was not. The same goes for Crouch - do you imagine that he refuses food because he thinks he gets too fat by it?

Nonsense like this is luckily easily rejected. And no matter how many sites you dig up, it still applies that the WHO is the most important organ in this business, an organization that advices people all over the world and to whom governments, institutions and doctors alike all listen. And they plainly say that Evans/Fleming was mildly thin, that anything from 16.0 and up CAN be anorectic, but unless the person weighing the weight is not having this disease, he or she is just moderately thin.

End of story. Sort of.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Well, that settles it then. Fleming was anorexic. Of course! That explains why there are so many references to his eating habits in his medical notes.

It's a beautiful solution...

No, Fleming was NOT anorectic. This we in fact know, since he did take food without any fuss.
He was tall, he was thin, he was not suffering from any significant illness and he liked his food. That, at least, is what the records tell us.

Not very strange, is it?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Peter Crouch has anorexia? I didn't know that. I kind of thought that, genetically speaking, there are many possibilities for body types and that 'healthy' can fall into vast ranges of size and weight. My mistake.

Mike

Ouch - you beat me to it! Yes, Crouch and anybody else ranging alongside him BMI-wise are anorectic, apparently.

The things you hear on these boards ...

The best, Mike!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Peter Crouch is 11 stone and 8 pounds, which would give him a BMI of 18.2.

Aha - well, then we are venturing onto never before trodden paths here. Joseph Fleming/James Evans was reported as weighing 11 stone 8 on the first record from Stone asylum. And he was 201 centimeters tall.
Peter Crouch weighs 11 stone 8, and he is 201 centimeters tall.

Somehow, this results in Fleming/Evans getting a BMI of 17.3, whereas Crouch lands on 18.2.

Care to expand on this?

The best,
Fisherman

[Wickerman]

Why is Crouch so famous ?
Because people are amazed by his height, his thinness, and the fact that he's a professional player, despite his extraordinary appearance.

Obviously, not the opinion of a soccer fan

He's famous for his goal scoring abilities, apart from his stats which mention his height, nowhere else do people dwell on this feature, only his fans who chant:
"He's big, he's red, his feet stick out the bed,...".
Even Wiki (all caveats duly noted), fails to bring up his height as anything extraordinary.

[DVV]

Obviously, not the opinion of a soccer fan

He's famous for his goal scoring abilities, apart from his stats which mention his height, nowhere else do people dwell on this feature, only his fans who chant:
"He's big, he's red, his feet stick out the bed,...".
Even Wiki (all caveats duly noted), fails to bring up his height as anything extraordinary.

Since I hate football and don't care about it, I'm a better example.

I don't know for which team he plays, and I'm sure I know nobody from his team, whatever it is.

But I know him.

Why ? Because he looks like... Peter Crouch.

Similarly, people who dislike rugby may have heard of Chabal, because of his beard and hair. And they talk about his physical appearance.

As would have done people in 1888 about Fleming, had he been so tall and thin.

Cheers

[DVV]

Here is the FIRST sentence of the entry Peter Crouch on wiki (French) :

"Peter James Crouch (né le 30 janvier 1981 à Macclesfield en Angleterre) est un footballeur anglais évoluant au poste d'attaquant au sein du club de Stoke City. Sa taille (2,01 m) rapportée à son poids (69 kg) en font l'un des footballeurs les plus surprenants à voir jouer, par son apparence longiligne."

[Wickerman]

As would have done people in 1888 about Fleming, had he been so tall and thin.

Hmm, well the Infirmary staff had three years to correct the height record. So if no-one noticed he was only the same height as every other male in the building, yet his record was a clear foot taller, then just maybe he was the actual height of 6' 7", thats why it was never changed?

Maybe the obvious, is just too close to see clearly?

[Ben]

Fisherman,

Will you please show some consideration towards other posters and stop using that bold type-face all the time. It's very difficult to read, and comes across as shouting. If you wish to quote somebody else's post, there's a perfectly good quote feature provided for that purpose. It's the furthest icon on the right in the "Quick Reply" option. Like this:

... but for the WHO, then - they say that it is when you come close to the 15.0 BMI it´s time to speak to the doctor.

But not only when you come close to 15. As I've shown from other sources, anyone with a BMI of less than 18.5 (i.e. considerably more than the BMI suggested of Fleming) is advised to consult a doctor. The WHO aren't exactly telling people to seek medical advice only when they start to resemble inmates from Belsen. The World Health Organisation, incidentally, are not on "your side", despite your repeated false claim that they are, and nor are they in conflict with anything I've said or produced from other sources on the subject of BMI. What you've done is misinterpret the grading system. Lest any doubt persist, observe the following from Wikipedia with regard to "WHO":

The WHO regards a BMI of less than 18.5 as underweight and may indicate malnutrition, an eating disorder, or other health problems

It is perfectly clear that they regard this category - the "thin" category - as a potential health hazard, and the further down from 18.5, the greater the concern. I realise you've run away with the idea that words such as "mild" and "moderate" imply something very trivial and cushy, but they don't mean "mild" and "moderate" in isolation, as we might describe a lazy summer scene by the meadow. They are simply used as part of a grading system for an already extreme group, and expressions such as "mild, moderate and severe" read better than "severe, scary, and don't-be-bloody-ridiculous". They are more restrained and circumspect. The criminological equivalent of "WHO" would doubtless observe that while someone like Ronnie Biggs may be "moderately evil", Andrei Chikatilo and Ian Brady are "extremely" so. That doesn't mean Biggs stole a few penny sweets.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders is not an "internet site", and you can contact them if you wish to tell them how they have "gotten it wrong", but I don't think they're likely to take much notice somehow.

I don't want to see any more meaningless comparisons with celebrities either, please. They are hopelessly inapplicable, not least because none of them have a BMI index of less than 17.5, which, according to DSM, represents the danger zone. Crouch is 18.2, whereas Fleming was a shocking 17.3 (if we accept the clearly erroneous record as accurate, at least).

It CAN be dangerous, but some people are very comfortable at these weights.

Some people, yes. The people who aren't lunatic slum-dwelling paupers who wander the streets, usually.

Aha - well, then we are venturing onto never before trodden paths here. Joseph Fleming/James Evans was reported as weighing 11 stone 8 on the first record from Stone asylum. And he was 201 centimeters tall.

Yep, which is not beyond the realms of the acceptable

However, he is later listed as being only 11 stone, and yet is still reported as being in "good" bodily health.

This takes us far beyond the realms of the acceptable.