Costermonger

[DVV]

"I think he was a costermonger" said Venturney about Joe (Fleming).

From wikipedia :

"Costermongers have existed in London since at least the 16th century (...). They probably were most numerous during the Victorian Era, when they were said to be over 30.000 in 1869. They gained a fairly unsavoury reputation for their "low habits, general improvidence, love of gambling, total want of education, disregard for lawful marriage ceremonies, and their use of a peculiar slang language." (...) Even common thieves preferred to prey on shop owners rather than costers, who were inclined to dispense street justice. The costers animosity towards the police was extreme."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costermonger

[Rubyretro]

I thought Fleming was a plasterer ?

How do we know that Julia was referring to this Joe, as a costermonger ?

[DVV]

How do we know that Julia was referring to this Joe, as a costermonger ?

Hello Ruby

I have no doubt this Joe was Fleming, just compare Venturney's words to Barnett's :

"She told me that in Pennington Street she lived (...) with Joseph Flemming, she was very fond of him. (...) Flemming used to visit her"

Apparently Fleming didn't work anymore as a plasterer when in Whitechapel, although Venturney merely said "I think he was a costermonger".
In 1889 Fleming presented himself as a dock labourer.

Amitiés
David

[Ben]

Interesting stuff, David.

Here's a personal account of a costermonger, in which he discusses his selling trips from London:

"We carry them relishes from London; and they like London relishes, for we know how to set them off. I've fresh herringed a whole village near Guildford, first thing in the morning. I've drummed round Guildford too, and done well. I've waked up Kingston with herrings. I've been as welcome as anything to the soldiers in the barracks at Brentwood, and Romford, and Maidstone with my fresh herrings, for they're good customers...I always lodge at a public house in the country."

From London Labour and the London Poor, by Henry Mayhew.

[DVV]

Thanks, Ben.

I must say the way costermongers were considered adds nothing to Fleming already "unsavoury" reputation (even if Venturney was mistaken, the fact she thought he could have been a costermonger is a bit telling).

All the best

[The Good Michael]

Venturney barely knew Kelly. If this man ill-used her, why didn't Barnett or Maria Harvey talk about it? It sounds like a story to me... the ill-using part.

Mike

[DVV]

Everytime I have a look at Mary's pic....I'm sure he ill-used her.

[The Good Michael]

David,

It's good to be sure. There are people who are sure of ghosts, UFOs, and God. I envy them.

Mike

[Rubyretro]

It's good to be sure. There are people who are sure of ghosts, UFOs, and God. I envy them.

Mike[/QUOTE]

Me too. I'm even beginning to see right through you.

The indications are that Venturney knew Mary well.

[DVV]

Take it easy, Mike.
I'm sure God has created UFOs to entertain ghosts.

[DVV]

The indications are that Venturney knew Mary well.

Indeed, Ruby.

[Ben]

If this man ill-used her, why didn't Barnett or Maria Harvey talk about it?

Because Kelly didn't tell them about it, obviously.

Kelly was reportedly very fond of the other Joe in spite of his "ill-use". If she had told Barnett about any violence, it would undoubtedly have led to a clash of the Joes. Given her affection for Joe #2, she probably withheld this information to avoid a Joe-off.

[claire]

And different people disclose different things. Barnett would have some clear reasons for not saying anything--including whether or not there had been a Joe-off (sorry, Ben--nicked yer phrase ).

[Ben]

Absolutely, Claire.

And glad you liked the phrase - I was rather proud of that one myself.

Good to see you back here!

All the best,
Ben

[claire]

Thanks, Ben. Work's kept me away for a bit, but good to see some of my pet topics being discussed in earnest--debate by proxy!