A Intresting find?

[richardnunweek]

Hi all,
I am not [ ashamed to say] known for research, however it is possible that I have come across something of intrest.
I have found a connection between Bethnal Green, and the Monument tea Warehouse at the docks, in which Joseph Fleming may have worked in 1887.
I was researching into Cutler street and its tea warehouse, when I came across a meeting held in 1887, over a pay dispute.
Ben Tillett, who was to become very powerful in the labour ranks attended that meeting along with Harry Orbell, who was to become first president of the Tea operatives and General Labourers Association, both of these had conection to Bethnal Green, the former living there in the 1881 census, and the latter born there, and to my knowledge still residing there, also both of these were born 1860.
So where does Fleming fit in to this.?
The following is taken from Tilletts memoirs.
The men who had taken the initiative in calling this meeting were my workmates, one or two of them my best friends, 'Fleming, the BRAWNY GIANT',and Harry Orwell, who became president of our union.
Is this our Joseph Fleming, ?
Is this confirmation of his size?
All three men had connections to Bethnal Green, all three of these men named, worked at the Monument tea warehouse at the docks. and all were the same age.
I recall that it has been claimed that victims were found near tea warehouses, the obvious being Mitre square.
We also have one letter claiming to be from Cutler street.
Did the killer have connections with the tea trade?
And finally was the man Tillett describes our infamous Joseph Fleming.?
Every chance I would suggest.
Regards Richard.

[Bob Hinton]

Research

Interesting find, but wasn't our party called Flemming and wasn't he a plasterer?
Speaking purely from memory here.

[lynn cates]

Isaacs

Hello Richard. Good find. Fascinating.

Have you come across an Isaacs? Fleming was muttering something about an "Isaacs" whilst in the lunatic asylum. He indicated that he had worked for him and that this Isaacs had lived (I think) either in Mile End or Mile End road.

The best.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Morning Bob,
Yes indeed Fleming was a plasterer, however when he was certified, his occupation at that time was Dock Labourer.
Obviously we do not know when his occupation altered,actually the term plasterers labourer was his true profession.
I just thought it rather intresting that three individuals who had connections with Bethnal Green, who were of the same age, and worked at the same place, one of them being mentioned as a 'Brawny giant' called Fleming.
If the records for the said man are correct, then 6'7 would be rather a giant figure I would suggest.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hello Lynn,
The trouble is Fleming [ if the right person] may have had many jobs since his plasterers labouring days when he was kellys beau.
If the man in my initial post is the correct person, we can assume that he was employed at the docks, and if the memoirs of Tillett are accurate then he would have worked at the Monument tea Warehouse in 1887, and continued that until is committal to a institution in 1891/2, as his occupation then was dock labourer.
What his ramblings meant , I have no idea, but I will endeavour to follow down the path that unravelled all of this one never knows.
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

ravings

Hello Richard. Thanks. I don't see a problem with the time frame. Indeed, I would take it that he had worked for this man early on. So 1887 would fit fine.

You are right that, a lunatic's ravings may be full of sound and fury signifying nothing. On the other hand, in vino veritas--and that would include the wine of Bacchus' madness.

Cheers.
LC

[claire]

Hi, Richard.
I've come across this before, and I'm afraid I haven't got any conclusive answers. At first I thought he was referring to John William (aka 'Chummy') Fleming, who moved from the UK to Australia and became very active in the unionist movement, following some early radicalism (amongst the family, too) in the UK. However, this chappy, who certainly did have connections with Tillett, moved to Melbourne in 1884--he is credited with helping raise that enormous fund from Aussie dockers that helped the Great Dock Strike continue to a successful conclusion. There was a swathe of family members both in the UK and Australia, however, and of course I don't have a record of them because I broke my old laptop and am rubbish at genealogical research, and I kind of assumed that it was one of those (and they certainly aren't *our* Joe's family), or that Chummy had come back on a visit, as Tillett did to Aussie a while later.
Still, it's not impossible that the Fleming that Tillett refers to is Joseph Fleming aka James Evans, docks labourer--by that time, thanks to Tillett, a decent enough wage was to be had at the docks...the only thing that gives me pause is the 'brawny,' but of course, Fleming could have lost considerable weight by the time of his committal in 1892. I just...sort of doubted it. But good luck with your investigations, though--keep us posted

Could you please direct me to your source for our Fleming having worked at the Monument Tea Warehouse, if you don't mind?

Lynn--I'm not sure that Joe Fleming said that this Isaacs had lived in the Mile End Road--just that he'd been coconut shying with him there.

Joe Fleming, eh? My favourite JtR character...just the mention of his name brightens my day

[lynn cates]

assumption

Hello Claire. You are right. I merely assumed that Isaacs lived where he played.

Cheers.
LC

[Bob Hinton]

Missing the point

Yes as I said isn't the man involved in MJK FleMMing not FleMing.

[claire]

I don't know that I'd get hung up on that, Bob, to be fair...Fleming's name is spelled both ways on the records, and his mother is listed on the confinement record as Henrietta Fleming. Then again, he's on it as James Evans, so...

[Debra A]

Very interesting find, Richard, and well worth following up on if you can.

Bob, if you look at the forum this thread is in (Joseph Fleming) and then click on it to view the other threads in that forum you will see it is consistently spelt Fleming, Chris Scott has some excellent research on the Fleming family that bears this out too.

[Bob Hinton]

As far as I can recall, I'm going back a bit here, his name was spelt Flemming in the papers and when I checked the census I found a Joeseph Flemming plasterer in there, correct address and everything.

I guess I'll have to look again.

In the 1881 he is listed as a Plasterer born in 1859 in Bethnal Green. Wasn't our Flemming from Bethnal Green?

[Bob Hinton]

Competely different Flemming

Well I don’t know. All that we know about MJK Fleming is that his name was spelt with two M’s (according to the testimony at MJK’s inquest) he had a connection to Bethnal Green and he was a plasterer.

I have the following:
1861 Census Joseph Flemming born in Bethnal Green circa 1858
1871 Census Joseph Flemming together with a Sarah Flemming (Josephs mother was called Sarah) aged 6 very likely his sister in Bethnal Green Workhouse.
1881 Census Joseph Flemming a lodger working as a plasterer.

Now call me Mr Picky but surely this chap fits what we know far better than any other candidate?

[Debra A]

Bob, in a lot of the newspaper reports of the inquest on MJk it is also spelt Fleming, I think both forms would be used.

Here is something Chris Scott posted on another thread a while back, taken from his book, The Ripper in Ramsgate;

Now to Fleming himself. His name appears in the available records under the spellings of Flemming and Fleming, but as his birth was registered under the latter form, that is the one I shall adopt. He was born in Bethnal Green in 1859, the son of Richard and Henrietta Fleming. His mother's maiden name was Henrietta Masom and his parents had married in Lambeth in 1842. Joseph was the only surviving boy in a family of four - he had an older sister Jane (born 1857) and two younger sisters, Mary Ann (born 1863) and Jessie (born 1868). Two other sisters appear to have died young - Henrietta (born 1846) and Sarah (born 1849) as well as an older brother William (born 1856) who also disappears from the record. Joseph followed his father's trade, as Richard Fleming is also listed as a plasterer, and it is through his father that we find the connection with Ramsgate, for Richard Fleming was born in the town. Richard was born in 1821 and the earliest mention of the family occurs in the 1841 census:

[Bob Hinton]

I would like to suggest

I appreciate that but his research only holds good if he has the right family. I reproduce below my candidate from the 1861 census.

Now on all the census returns the name is spelled Flemming, with two M’s, so to say that in the official records the name is spelled both ways is incorrect.

Now we come to the official record of the inquest, the transcripts. I reproduce an extract from the official record. Note the spelling of the name.

The start point for any investigation must be the Inquest that is where we are first introduced to Joseph Flemming. His occupation is given as plasterer and his home ground is given as Bethnal Green.

Now I don’t know if Chris Scott has any official record listing his man as a plasterer, I know his choices father is listed as one, but that’s not the same.


Now my candidate is listed in official records as follows:

Inquest as Joseph Flemming (the start)
1881 Census listed as Joseph Flemming Plasterer (age 22)
1871 Census listed as Joseph Flemming (age 11) together with a Sarah Flemming age 6 (probably sister) in Bethnal Green Workhouse
1861 Census listed as Joseph Flemming, (age 3) father George, mother Sarah, living in Bethnal Green.

Now allowing for minor errors in the ages, DOB apparently ranges from 1858 to 1860, I submit that this man more accurately fits the information we have about the man mentioned in the Inquest. The spelling of the name has remained the same, from the Inquest back to the 1881, back to the 1871, back to the 1861, the locality is correct and the occupation is correct.

For another candidate to be suggested I would maintain that he must conform, or very good reasons given as to why he doesn’t conform, to the information given at the Inquest – the starting point!