The records from Stone Asylum for Joseph Fleming - transcription

[Supe]

Fish and Sam,

There you guys go again--everything is sexual. I mean, "cocoanut" was a popular slang term for the head so maybe his "shying" just indicated a desire to remove a head from the body, which in fact Jack attempted in several cases. And has anyone considered that he may well have gone "conkernut shying" with the doc, who was only covering up his own mis-spent days by calling Fleming delusional. In any case, his listed height gives a new twist on the "Jack and the Beanstalk" legend.

Don.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The height refered to with the weight refered to, especially at the lowest mark, would refer to a person extremely underweight, but of course that is possible given his condition, however two points spring to mind.
If that description is an accurate one, then his sheer size would make him one of the strangest candidates for JTR.
Also the records would have his age on admittance as 37 years, which would differ from what was always assumed was the actual Fleming which was also the son of a woman with the same name.
In other words, it does appear unlikely that this Fleming ,alias James Evans was the ex lover of Miss kelly.
I would however love him to be actually 6.7'', as I know that grave scene at leytonstone cemetary has been much discussed, but I have always said the male figure nearest the grave was of great size, and if one takes a description apparently refering to Father Colombran' A giant of a man' the question arises was the man that was being refered to, one Joseph Fleming.?
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

Hi Richard,

Also the records would have his age on admittance as 37 years, which would differ from what was always assumed was the actual Fleming which was also the son of a woman with the same name. In other words, it does appear unlikely that this Fleming ,alias James Evans was the ex lover of Miss kelly.

Firstly, there's no question that the Fleming in question was the ex-lover of Kelly, and secondly, we know that the age of 37 is definitely wrong. We know for certain that the Joseph Fleming (aka James Evans), son of Richard and Henrietta Fleming was born in 1859, making him 29 at the time of the murders. He would have been 33 in 1893.

The height refered to with the weight refered to, especially at the lowest mark, would refer to a person extremely underweight

Indeed, Richard, extremely and oddly so. But as noted previously, that isn't the only unusual application of the number 6. We also learn that Henrietta Fleming had reported insanity in the family for 160 years, which is an oddly precise estimate.

Best regards,
Ben

[Jeff Leahy]

Paranoid Schizophrenia?

Just a quick note to congratulate Rob and Chris on their ‘Stone’ discovery. Strangely enough I was reading the chapter on Fleming last night in ‘JtR Ramsgate’ and was wondering if any records had been discovered.

I will forward the info to my brother who works in mental health, to see if he has any observations.

However I found the fact that he appears to improve then deteriorate interesting (12 week waves?). Also the last entry Jan 1st 1895: Abusive. I’m not an expert but this does sound to me like Joseph Fleming / James Evans was suffering from Paranoid Schizophrenia.

A very interesting discovery.

Pirate

PS very much enjoying your book Chris. I have your Sickert chapter tonight.

[Fisherman]

There are a number of questions begging for answers around in this story. When did Joseph Fleming become "James Evans", and why did he add an extra four years to his age? Moreover, he seems only to be named as James Evans in the Stone Asylum records, although it seems perfectly obvious that his mother Henrietta was present at his admission, giving the wiew about the 160 years of insanity on behalf of the family.

It would seem obvious that even if this man had given his name as James Evans and his age as 37 at the time of his admission, Henrietta would have been able to set things straight. So why was this not done?

I am also having some trouble with the wording:
"Page: 63
Name: James Evans
Age: 37
Admitted: July 4th 1892
Previous Occupation: Dock labourer
Social condition: Single
Address of Friends: Henrietta Fleming, 261 Nile Street
No. in register: 1985
Religion: Church of England
Education: St Luke's - mother"

Do all the records here belong to "James Evans", and if so, what does the word "mother" do here? It´s all quite confusing.

The best,
Fisherman

[Chris Scott]

Hi guys
A few points from your posts:
Philip - many thanks for the pic. Regarding the weight, this was taken regularly and there is no doubt that 11st was intended. I can post other examples of the "11st" if required.

Regarding the link between James Evans and Fleming.
There is no entry in these records that states EXPLICITLY that Henrietta Fleming was James Evans's mother. Her name is listed under "Address of Friends". The entry that mentions "mother" is problematic in that in places the writer's handwriting is not at all easy to decipher. The reading "St Luke's - mother" was the only thing that I could make of this. However, as this is important I am posting it below to see if anyone could make a better reading of this.
However, having said that, I think the most important link between the Evans and Fleming is on his death certificate where he is named under his original name:
"28 August 1920 at Claybury Mental Hospital, Urban District.
Joseph Fleming, otherwise James Evans.
Male, 65 years.
Of City of London Union Infirmary.
Previous address unknown. Chargeable to Bethnal Green, a dock labourer.
Cause of death, Pulmonary Tuberculosis, 6 months, 13 days
P.M. Certified by F. Paine, acting Medical Superintendent, Claybury Mental Hospital, Ilford, 1 September 1920."

I have today received a reply from Redbridge Records Office regarding any possible for Fleming after 1895 at Claybury. Whilst non committal this is a fairly positive message and, if course, I will be pursuing.
The reply reads as follows:

Dear Mr/Ms Scott,
Thank you for your enquiry.
We hold such Claybury patient records as survive (and there are very few) on behalf of the local Health Authority, who have imposed two conditions on access:

1. proof must be provided that the presence of the person in Claybury is in the public domain. Usually people send us a copy of the death certificate or the patient's 1901 census entry, both of which are fine; if you have some other record, just let us know.

2. The records are subject to 100 year closure. As you are no doubt aware, the Freedom of Information Act is gradually having an impact on the revelation of records, and the precise impact on medical records is quite a tricky area. However, both we and the Health Authority take great care to observe the law, and to be open in our dealings with the public.

I suggest that you send us the name of the person in question, and the proof that his time at Claybury is in the public domain: if you happen to know his month of admission, as well as the year, that will speed up our search. I'm afraid the chances are that we shall have nothing relating to him. However, if we are fortunate enough to find a record, we shall give you as much information as possible

[Chris Scott]

Regarding Evans's age:
If he were really Joseph Fleming, which his death certificate seems to indicate, then, as pointed out, his birth was registered at Bethnal Green in the 2nd Quarter (April to June) of 1859 (Volume 1c page 254). His real age at the time of admission to Stone (July 1892) would have been 33 years old.
The other check we have on the age of this patient is his listing in the 1901 census, taken in early April of that year. As he would almost certainly have not yet had his birthday in that year by the time the census was taken, his real age at the time of the census would have been 41 years old. However he is listed in the 1901 census as aged 45 (see below)
So there seems to be a consistent addition of 4 years to his age, for reasons unknown, just as we do not know when or why he adopted the names of James Evans
Chris

[Chris Scott]

There are a number of pics of Stone Asylum at the Francis Frith site at:

http://www.francisfrith.com/search/england/kent/dartford/photos/dartford_photos.htm

[Chris]

A history of Stone House by Francine Payne was published in 2007:

http://tinyurl.com/dbfwf2

[Sam Flynn]

It's him, alright...

The reading "St Luke's - mother" was the only thing that I could make of this. However, as this is important I am posting it below to see if anyone could make a better reading of this.

It certainly seems to be "mother", Chris, to which weight is added by the way the address was written. It seems to run perilously close to the middle of the page (I note that the paper curves away to the right at that point), and it seems that the registrar has "wrapped" the address onto the next line. The entry should therefore read, when written out linearly:

Henrietta Fleming, 216 Nile Street St Lukes - mother.

In other words, there is no entry for "Education" at all, but Henrietta's name/address details take up both lines, thus:

Henrietta Fleming, 216 Nile Street
St Lukes - mother.

This is supported by the fact that, in the 1891 Census, we have this entry:

1891 Census Return for 123 Lever Street, St Lukes
Henrietta Fleming (Head), 69, b. Camberwell
Jessie Fleming (Daur), 23, b. Bethnal Green. Brace Machinist

Lever Street is less than a third of a mile away from Nile Street:



Henrietta is incorrectly indexed as "Hermina" at Ancestry.com, but it's "our" Henrietta alright - as a glance at the actual Census return image will confirm. You'll recall that Henrietta Masom/Fleming was born in Camberwell, and that she had a daughter named "Jessie", aged 13 in the 1881 census. She, like her brother "James Evans/Joseph Fleming", was born in Bethnal Green.

[Fisherman]

Yep, Sam - your take on it makes sense to me. What does NOT make sense, though, is why he goes down as James Evans, in spite of his mother´s participation. And them four years remain equally confusing.

But most of all, the six feet and them seven inches are disturbing - if this is our Joe, and if he DID see Mary Kelly occasionaly, one would have expected somebody to remark on the fact that she was dating the tallest guy in London...!

The best,
Fisherman

[richardnunweek]

Hi Fisherman,
It appears that Mary, when she met Fleming for the first time at last found someone to look up to, however he appears to have looked down on her throughout their courtship.
Had to get that one in...........
Seriously, records, and census, do not make verification at all easy.
Everyone laughed when I suggested flemings height was unusual, to much was made of 'sic' and instantly one foot was taken of his height, even though it was going against records.
If he was the height as in the records , I must suggest that he, as a viable suspect , regardless of his medical inheritance is poor, especially as a candidate for JTR. and even as Kellys killer.
Intresting thread.
Regards Richard.

[Fisherman]

Hi Richard!

You would be right on most counts here! It certainly lowers his viability dramatically if Fleming was 6.7.
It does a thing or two to the Fleming/Hutchinson theory too - if nothing else, it adds new dimensions to the expression "military appearance"...

Anyhow, I feel there is a long distance left to travel before we get to the end of things in the Evans/Fleming affair. And yes, it is a thoroughly interesting thread - quite absorbing!

The best, Richard!
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Yep, Sam - your take on it makes sense to me. What does NOT make sense, though, is why he goes down as James Evans, in spite of his mother´s participation.

I once knew a mentally-ill person who insisted that they were "Moody Blue", and freaked out if you didn't call them by that name. Might being called "James Evans" have been a delusion on Fleming's part?

[Rob Clack]

Lever Street 1895. These are the Guiness Lodging House built between 1892 and 1894



Rob