The records from Stone Asylum for Joseph Fleming - transcription

[Ben]

To start with. Drinking for long periods of time changes the brain chemistry. Its also possible all kinds of concoctions were being sold as gin.

Yes, many thousands of men and women were drinking high-concentration, poor-quality booze on a regular basis, but they didn't all end up with "mania" and delusions of persecutions sufficient to lock them away for the rest of their lives. We don't even had any evidence that Fleming was a heavy drinker, or that he had ever lived an "immoral" lifestyle. Drinking can be an exacerbant to mental illness (which had apparently been in the family for 160 years according to his mother), but not a cause. For that matter, there is equally no reason to suppose that the ripper was not a heavy drinker and user of prostitutes.

As far as Fleming abusing Mary well that can be expected. Mary was young and would put up with something like that.

Whether she was able to put up with it or not is irrelevent. Fleming reportedly ill-used Kelly specifically for living with Barnett. By all means chalk that up to the ever-useful "Oh, everyone did that all the time in 1888" (which would be wrong), not all ill-users of their lovers moved into the district at the start of the Whitechapel murders, were committed to a lunatic asylum for the rest of their lives and had a criminal history.

If he moved there in august then there are 999,999 other more likely suspects.

Huh? "More likely"? I have no idea how on earth that would follow.

JTR was able to handle the pressure of not only committing the crimes but to function normally even though everyone around him was on a hair trigger about his crimes.

That is a reflection on his mental state in 1888. There is no reason to suppose that he conveyed any outwards and visible signs of insanity at that time, or else the likelihood is that he would have been "found" wandering at large much earlier than 1892.

[Mitch Rowe]

Hi Mitch,

Not sure what you mean here, or what poor quality gin has to do with it.

Plenty of men in the district fell victim to heavy drinking and alcoholism without being incarcerated in an asylum for the rest of their lives, and of those who were locked away on account of their "mania", very few were reported to have ill-used the most brutually murdered victim in the Whitechapel series, or to have moved into the murder district in August of 1888.

I'm not sure how valid the notion of a "notorious phantom" is, for what it's worth.

Cheers,
Ben

To start with. Drinking for long periods of time changes the brain chemistry. Its also possible all kinds of concoctions were being sold as gin. Like wood alchohol I bet. But it doesnt mean Fleming was incapable of committing the crimes in 1888 I might add. It just seems like a likely ending for the downward spiral of alcoholism and an "immoral" lifestyle in general. Although many others never ended up in custody as insane, drinking can be expected to improve their chances.

As far as Fleming abusing Mary well that can be expected. Mary was young and would put up with something like that. And its not as if she is picking her men out of a GQ magazine or something. Besides, who knows what really happened? Fleming and about a million other people also lived in that area. If he moved there in august then there are 999,999 other more likely suspects.

If the Sharon Tate murders hadnt been solved Im sure suspicion would have fallen on Roman Polanski even though he was thousands of miles away at the time. Remember.. Police refused to believe the La Bianca murders were connected.

What I mean by notorious phantom is just that. JTR was able to handle the pressure of not only committing the crimes but to function normally even though everyone around him was on a hair trigger about his crimes. If JTR was able to avoid detection for his crimes Im sure he could avoid the little men with white coats effectively enough to keep himself out of the asylum if he were in fact suffering from mental illness.

[Sam Flynn]

Its gotta be 6'1". Didnt they cross their sevens?

I don't think such would have been generally the case at the time, Mitch, at least not in Britain. I'm sure the crossed seven was an invention of those beastly "continental" types, that never quite took off in the europhobic UK.

[Ben]

Hi Mitch,

Not sure what you mean here, or what poor quality gin has to do with it.

Plenty of men in the district fell victim to heavy drinking and alcoholism without being incarcerated in an asylum for the rest of their lives, and of those who were locked away on account of their "mania", very few were reported to have ill-used the most brutually murdered victim in the Whitechapel series, or to have moved into the murder district in August of 1888.

I'm not sure how valid the notion of a "notorious phantom" is, for what it's worth.

Cheers,
Ben

[Scott Nelson]

Sigh.

This thread is a perfect example of why I don't take part in stupid, circular debate

[Mitch Rowe]

Flemings a Flop.

Its gotta be 6'1". Didnt they cross their sevens?

It looks like this fleming guy probably led a hard life of drinking cheap rotgut. Dont seem like theres a notorious phantom here. Just another name attached to the cases thats all. A heart breaking story of cheap gin and even cheaper women.

[Ben]

Hi all,

I'm probably way behind here, but do we have any records on Fleming from the infirmery in Bow where he was committed in 1892 before being sent to Stone?

Thanks,

Ben

[Fisherman]

"James Evans" and Joe Fleming were undoubtedly one and the same person."

So it would certainly appear, Sam. But I for one would not mind some more substantiation on the matter. It would be nice, for instance, to have a look at the papers from the facility where the 14-year old Fleming was brought after his failed attempt at burglary, to see whether they had his length recorded. It would be a record from way before the "James Evans-era", and it could put that tiny little gnawing-away doubt to rest.
If I may, I would like to remind you that you earlier on this thread wrote, I believe, that you were "almost certain" that Evans and Fleming were one and the same, and that has now escalated into "no doubt whatsoever". Me, I would settle for the former alternative until further notice, since I cannot for example agree 100 percent that Henrietta Fleming "undoubtedly" was the mother of the James Evans in Stone Asylum. To be perfectly sure of this, we must of course prove that nobody can possibly state that they are the mother of somebody without actually being so.
I do not wish to go into questions of WHY mrs Fleming would do such a thing, only point to the fact that a little more job needs to be done before we can go from a case that seems to be very, very hard to doubt to a case where we KNOW that no doubts, whatsoever, can apply. And that does not mean that I am pushing a point that Evans and Fleming were not one and the same. We have to work from the more likely scenarios when the evidence urges us to - but that does not mean that very, very improbale equals impossible.

Of course, even if things are exactly what they seem to be, that does in no way mean that Fleming/Evans was not the murderer. He remains a very viable candidate, even in a 6.7 shape.

The best, Sam!
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Fish - I have no doubt whatsoever that this was the same man. His death certificate gives both names, and Henrietta Fleming was undoubtedly the mother of the plasterer Joe Fleming born in Bethnal Green, as well as "James Evans", the patient. We can only guess at what imbalance led Fleming to give himself that alias (perhaps he was so afraid of his imaginary pursuers that he insisted on being called by that name), but "James Evans" and Joe Fleming were undoubtedly one and the same person.

[Fisherman]

God only knows, Sam. But it reamins kind of odd that he goes down as James Evans in spite of his mothers (if that she was) naming him Joseph Fleming.

Do we have any James Evansīs who are born in 1855? Has that been checked out? I think it would be healthy to dive deep into this one, since there are a number of oddities involved..!

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

More interesting is the fact that it seems that the note about Evans/Fleming being found wandering, and the note about Henriettas statement of family insanity seem not to have been written using the same pen and handwriting...?

The product of a later interview, perhaps? Similarly, the "James Evans" entry might have been placed on the file originally, when he was brought in, only for subsequent enquiries to have discovered the patient's true name.

[Fisherman]

Thanks for that, Chris! Once again, that figure 6 can leave us in little doubt. The only alternative is that it was supposed to say 100, but that would require quite a stretch.
More interesting is the fact that it seems that the note about Evans/Fleming being found wandering, and the note about Henriettas statement of family insanity seem not to have been written using the same pen and handwriting...?

The best!
Fisherman

[Chris Scott]

As I posted the original entry for the contentious note about Evans's height, you will find below the original of the note about insanity in the family for 160 years
Folks may want to judge the clarity of these entries for themselves

[Fisherman]

Sam asks:
"Might being called "James Evans" have been a delusion on Fleming's part?"

Well, Sam, that is not the kind of question I would answer yes OR no to. But it would surprise me a lot if mother and son were so much agreed on it that they persuaded the notekeeper at the asylum to play along when taking the records...

The best,
Fisherman

[Brenda]

He didn't even have to go inside for a visit. Mom could just come out on the landing and have a face-to-face chat. Even though she lived on the 3rd floor!!