The records from Stone Asylum for Joseph Fleming - transcription

[Sam Flynn]

Ill take A-Z over any press account.

So you'd rather take a secondary or tertiary source over an original? Says a lot.

At least those authors did do the research.

Did they? Or did they read the same press reports that are at our disposal, NONE of which mention coconut fibre or "factories" AT ALL, and assumed from them that Coram worked in a fibre factory? He could have been lugging boxes of coconut oil, for all the contemporary papers tell us.

I was actually supporting you earlier, in identifying not only a coconut warehouse in the vicinity, but also an alternative source of coconuts... yet you seem to have taken it personally, by picking on the one point I made that seemed to contradict you, despite the fact that I was merely putting the record straight by going back to original sources.

I do wish you'd grow up.

Check contemporary newspaper reports, Mike: they say what I said - no mention of "fibre" or "factory". (I don't make these things up, you know!)

Anyway, if you read the rest of my post, it offers an alternative source for coconuts that requires neither warehouses (although these existed: see above) nor factory employees.

Ill take A-Z over any press account. At least those authors did do the research.

Best regards

[claire]

Great scans, Chris...as a note, it seems likely that the 'CW' Patterson was actually (and there's an example of the differences in the LVP hand there, and variations on letters) A E Patterson. As noted before (I think), Dr Patterson died in 1917 quite suddenly, after a brief illness.

Like others, I'm interested that this sudden disclosure on Fleming's part coincided with what was to be his final examination before release...it's certainly not unusual for (particularly long-term) residents in psychiatric hospitals to avoid discharge in any way possible, but given that he had been going along nicely enough, seemingly symptom-free (or relatively so) until this point, this could suggest that he was very keen to avoid being released. The question is, was this just because he had become accustomed to hospital life (and, of course, he was to spend the rest of his life in one), or because he was actively avoiding perils on the outside? If the latter, were those perils real, or imagined?

[Sam Flynn]

Check A-Z under Thomas Coram.

Check contemporary newspaper reports, Mike: they say what I said - no mention of "fibre" or "factory". (I don't make these things up, you know!)

Anyway, if you read the rest of my post, it offers an alternative source for coconuts that requires neither warehouses (although these existed: see above) nor factory employees.

I can't see where he mentions coconut fibres as such, Mike - only that he worked for a "cocoanut dealer" or as "a labourer in a cocoanut warehouse". Not that it matters a great deal, although it's possible that Coram's workplace dealt in wholesale pre-processed coconut products, rather than the entire fruits themselves.

I dare say that "cocoanuts" would also have been shipped in from overseas at the Docks - there was a "Cocoanut Stairs" in Poplar - in which case the nuts could easily have found their way into the East End in their native state, whether by legal or illegal channels.

Out of interest, there was a "cocoanut warehouse", run by someone named ME Collins, at 18-21 Creechurch Lane, which was depicted in a map of 1891/2 (according to Nikolaus Pevsner & Simon Bradley, in their book The City of London, Vol I. Courtesy of a Google Book search.)

Check A-Z under Thomas Coram.

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

Its worth pointing out that Thomas Coram of the Stride investigation worked at a coconut fibre factory.

I can't see where he mentions coconut fibres as such, Mike - only that he worked for a "cocoanut dealer" or as "a labourer in a cocoanut warehouse". Not that it matters a great deal, although it's possible that Coram's workplace dealt in wholesale pre-processed coconut products, rather than the entire fruits themselves.

I dare say that "cocoanuts" would also have been shipped in from overseas at the Docks - there was a "Cocoanut Stairs" in Poplar - in which case the nuts could easily have found their way into the East End in their native state, whether by legal or illegal channels.

Out of interest, there was a "cocoanut warehouse", run by someone named ME Collins, at 18-21 Creechurch Lane, which was depicted in a map of 1891/2 (according to Nikolaus Pevsner & Simon Bradley, in their book The City of London, Vol I. Courtesy of a Google Book search.)

[lynn cates]

migration

Hello Mike. Thanks for that. Now we know that, with a factory nearby, it would be easy to obtain the shells for shying.

And I was going to suggest that "coconuts migrate." (Sorry.)

The best.
LC

Fish and Sam,

There you guys go again--everything is sexual. I mean, "cocoanut" was a popular slang term for the head so maybe his "shying" just indicated a desire to remove a head from the body, which in fact Jack attempted in several cases. And has anyone considered that he may well have gone "conkernut shying" with the doc, who was only covering up his own mis-spent days by calling Fleming delusional. In any case, his listed height gives a new twist on the "Jack and the Beanstalk" legend.

Don.

Its worth pointing out that Thomas Coram of the Stride investigation worked at a coconut fibre factory.

Best regards

[lynn cates]

anticipating

Hello Chris. Thanks. Keep us posted.

The best.
LC

[Chris Scott]

Here are details of the Ernest White who wrote case notes on Fleming
If I manage to track down the "C Patterson" I'll let you know
Chris

1891 Census

City of London Asylum, Stone, Kent
Head: Ernest William White aged 40 born Norwich - Resident Physician City of London Asylum
Sisters:
Edith White aged 28 born Norwich - Housekeep to Head
Jane E White aged 31 born Norwich - Living on own means
Servants:
Harriet Gower aged 24 born Tonbridge - Housemaid
Sarah Cooke aged 21 born Maidstone - Cook

A note adds:
The remainder of this asylum is specially enumerated

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello DVV. Right you are! He was about to get out and then he had one of his rambling attacks with the "Isaacs" business--he was canceled, fast.

"if I'm allowed a little musing"

Please do. That's about all any of us are doing here. Meanwhile, the search goes on and all of us keep on looking, musing, searching.

The best.
LC

[DVV]

Henrietta

Of course, if you are right that Fleming killed at least MJK, his mental state, as exemplified above, would not be inconsistent with one who had committed such a crime.
LC

Agreed, Lynn, to say the least...
Let me add that we just can notice that his words about Isaacs looked strange enough to be written down, and were suddenly uttered - putting an end to a relatively "sane" period.

Also fascinating in Stone records is Henrietta's statement, if I'm allowed a little musing...

We do know that in 1891, she was living with her daughter Jessie, her husband being at the time in Shoreditch infirmary.
We do know that in 1901, aged 79, she was still living with Jessie, and with Jane's daughter, one Henrietta Finch.

This, and the fact that she bothered to visit Joe at Stone, points out to a mother who was quite close to her children.

I think we have therefore some reasons to suspect that she had known about Joe and Mary love story. They had been about to marry...
And she must have known that Joe was in Whitechapel in Nov 1888. At least, she would have known he had left Bethnal Green.
She certainly read the papers and recalled his son's ex-girlfriend...
She observed also that Joe never came forward to give more info about the victim.
And she either never came forward.

Insanity had been in the family for 150 years... It wasn't Joe's fault.

Amitiés,
David

[lynn cates]

point of view

Hello Chris. Thanks again. Since Fleming continued to conflate the writer (examiner?) with someone he knew, it's a pity they did no follow up (as far as we know). Of course, they were thinking of his case in terms of LVP mental health workers; not in terms of 21 st c ripperologists.

Thanks again!

Cheers.
LC

[Chris Scott]

To give some idea of the relative number of entries from each signatory, below is a low res scan of the page with the dated entries
Of course this is not fully legible but the transcription heads this thread and it may give some idea of the number of entries from each medic
Chris

[lynn cates]

delusional

Hello Chris. Thank you so much. His talk of Isaacs could be delusional or it could refer to an old boss or friend who actually existed--as Claire points out.

Academic points, but fascinating for those interested.

The best.
LC