Fleming in 1872

[Ben]

Many thanks for clearing that one up, Rob.

In which case, we're talking about an extremely close proximity to the former Belhaven location (and the site of the Ada Wilson attack to boot). "West of Grove Road the remaining space, north of the railway, was covered with Belhaven and Burnside streets"* is an almost precise description of the area covering Cyprus Street, then Wellington Street:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=cyprus%20street&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=il

He was literally piddling on his own doorstep!

*From: 'Bethnal Green: Building and Social Conditions from 1837 to 1875', A History of the County of Middlesex: Volume 11: Stepney, Bethnal Green (1998), pp. 120-126.

Cheers,
Ben

[Debra A]

Thanks Rob, Ben and Chris,
Rob, it didn't mean that much to me but glad Ben was able to suss it out!

Bellhaven still doesn't show up for me in Bethnal Green or Bow on the street searches of any census on the site I use

[DVV]

Thanks again everybody,
I didn't know that Wellington St became Cyprus St, and that's interesting, since Fleming's family is recorded at Wellington St in 1871, and in Cyprus St ten years later.
Just like Debra and Ben, I think that the 1872 thief is "our" Joe. Age and location really seem to prove it.

Amitiés,
David

[Captain Hook]

Fleming's chisel

Finally, the presence of an iron chisel, whilst a million miles from being damning, speaks to me a little of someone in one of the construction trades.

Hello Claire et al.

A few days ago I disagreed with your opinion quoted above, saying that I could see how a stonemason might use an iron chisel in his work, but wasn't so sure about a plasterer. I stand corrected. I have consulted a friend in the building trade who told me that a plasterer would definitely carry a chisel in his toolbox. This would not be a carpenter's chisel, with a wood or, nowadays, plastic handle, but an iron or cold chisel fashioned entirely out of iron or steel. A plasterer would use this tool together with a hammer in order to smooth down any irregularities on the surface of the wall to be plastered, such as lumps or "snots" of cement or protruding bricks. A chisel is, of course, a tool often used in breaaking and entering

So if allowance is made for Fleming's age - a few months below 14 - and bearing in mind that his father was a plasterer and would therefore have counted chisels among his tools, he could indeed be the same Fleming who years later lived with Mary Jane Kelly in Bethnal Green and ended his days caged in an asylum.

It is worth recalling that Fleming also went by the name "James Evans". Perhaps he had some encounters with the police under that name as well.

Cheers
Hook

[Chris Scott]

Regarding Fleming's accomplice and co defendant, Thomas Cox, the most likely candidate in the 1871 census is:
81 Sclater Street, Bethnal Green
Head: Amelia Cox (Widow) aged 45 born Bethnal Green - Seamstress
Children:
Henry aged 17 - Sailor
Thomas aged 15 - Wood carver
Frederick aged 13 - Chairmaker's assistant
Edward aged 7
George aged 5
Robert aged 1

[Fisherman]

Head: Amelia Cox (Widow) aged 45 born Bethnal Green - Seamstress

So, another seamstress. Lord knows there must have been a lot of sewing going on back in them days ...

The best!
Fisherman

[DVV]

Hi all,
this 1872's affair is important for 2 reasons:
1- the location (near to where Ada Wilson has been assaulted in 1888, by a young white man sporting a wideawake hat...)
2- Fleming's displayed more cunning than his elder accomplice
In short, it adds weight to Fleming's (Hutchinson, Evans) candidacy - it's far from a mere biographical information.

Amitiés,
David

[Fisherman]

Good observations there, David! You did, I suppose, notice the fact that Fleming was mentioned first in the article, despite being younger and having the alphabetical disadvantage?
Myself, I have taken a particular liking to the fact that Fleming (IF it was our Fleming) was a burglar. It tallies ridiculously well with my upcoming article in Ripperologist...
If we could only find out the offences he had made himself guilty of prior to 1872!

The best!
Fisherman

[claire]

Thanks for that, Hook...I didn't know for certain about the iron chisel: I just recalled using a little tool one time I had to do a patch up job in our bathroom and made a right hash of it (snots sounds about right!). It would have doubled nicely as a breaking and entering tool.

DVV: I agree with you. This helps in drawing an arc between a juvenile offender and his later potential offending (eek, does that sound too much like profiling? I don't mean it to.).

Exciting stuff.

[DVV]

His mother's maiden name was Mason - but that's surely a coincidence.

Salut mon cher Crochet,
I've seen her name given as "Masom", and "Mason". Which one is a typo...?

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

Hi Claire and Fish,
exciting stuff, indeed.
I couldn't sleep yesterday.
I will not, tonight.

Amitiés,
David

[Ben]

Agreed, chaps.

It would also add an interesting slant to my personal suspcion that Kelly's killer may have staked out the area - "loitered" - before gaining entry.

Cheers,
Ben

[DVV]

If we could only find out the offences he had made himself guilty of prior to 1872!

Indeed, Fish!
and what about the sentence: 5 years ina "reformatory". Something also can come out from this.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

Agreed, chaps.

It would also add an interesting slant to my personal suspcion that Kelly's killer may have staked out the area - "loitered" - before gaining entry.

Cheers,
Ben

You can, Ben,
that smells Flemtchinson too much (I can smell it standing on the port of Toulon, believe me!).

Amitiés,
David

ps: podcast listened, it was nice to hear your voice(s)

[Ben]

Thanks, David.

Another geographical point of interest: Thanks to Chris' research we learn that Fleming's co-defendant lived in Sclater Street, a very short walk due North of the Hanbury Street crime scene and just off Brick Lane.

Cheers,
Ben