Fleming in 1872

[DVV]

Hi all,
some years ago, Debra A posted something about Jo Fleming, entertaining the possibility that he could be a Joseph Fleming who, in 1872 at the age of 14, escaped from police during 2 days (after some minor deed).
Does anyone know more about this story?
Thanks,
David

[Ben]

Interesting stuff, David!

Do you recall how long ago Debs posted this information? I can't seem to find it in the archived section of the forums.

Best regards,
Ben

[DVV]

I think it was in 2006, in the thread "Alias Fleming and Hutch", as re-started by Sam Flynn.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

Hi all,
some years ago, Debra A posted something about Jo Fleming, entertaining the possibility that he could be a Joseph Fleming who, in 1872 at the age of 14, escaped from police during 2 days (after some minor deed).
Does anyone know more about this story?
Thanks,
David

Still no news about that?

[Debra A]

Sorry David,
I remember posting a brief mention on this ages ago, it was something to do with burglary via a window I seem to recall? (Can't find the thread I first mentioned it in)
I haven't been able to track the original story down again or find anything else either.

[Chris Scott]

Here it is
Times 20 Nov 1872

[Ben]

Excellent find, Chris.

A Joseph Fleming who attempted to break into a building after being seen "loitering" in the vicinity before hand? Talk about the plot thickeneing!

Thanks to Debs too, and David for remembering about it.

Best wishes,
Ben

[Captain Hook]

Hi all,

Fleming was born on 17 March 1859. He was not yet 14 in November 1872. So it might be another Joseph Fleming.

Cheers
Hook

[claire]

might be, but I can't recall how many Joseph Flemings of similar age we have to choose from. Can anyone refresh my memory?

I'm interested, too, in the fact that this Fleming had been 'previously convicted,' but not for burglary...I wonder for what. Finally, the presence of an iron chisel, whilst a million miles from being damning, speaks to me a little of someone in one of the construction trades. I know this is more hunch than considered opinion, but I'd be willing to put a small bet on this being our Mr Fleming aka all sorts of things once he'd got a clear message about the consequences of the police being aware of your previous...

[Debra A]

might be, but I can't recall how many Joseph Flemings of similar age we have to choose from. Can anyone refresh my memory?

I think there were three in all, Claire, which led me to think that this was the same Joe Fleming when I originally found the story (thanks to Chris for digging it out again)
I searched in the 1871 census for all variations of the forename Joseph, surname Fleming/Flemming b +/- 5 years either side of 1858 living in London only.
Only our man came up and two younger boys.
Maybe Chris Scott or someone else can confirm this.

[Chris Scott]

Births
Joseph Fleming
1858 - 2
1859 - 4
1860 - 9

[Captain Hook]

Hi all,

Thank you Chris et al.

Looks like there are two Joseph Flemings born in 1858 who might suit the bill better than our man.

Our Joseph Fleming (Mary Kelly's one-time lover) was said to have been a plasterer or stonemason, though near the end of his active life, before he was interned in an asylum, he worked as a dock labourer. According to his birth certificate, his father, Richard, was also a plasterer. His mother's maiden name was Mason - but that's surely a coincidence.

I can see how a stonemason might use an iron chisel in his work, though I couldn't vouch for it. I'm not so sure about a plasterer.

Cheers
Hook

[DVV]

Hi all,
and many thanks to Debra and Chris,
Where were born the 2 "1858" Flemings?
In November 1872, "our" JF was 13 years and some months old, since he was born in the 2nd quarter of 1859. His age could then be given as 13 or 14...
In 1871, Fleming's family was living at 60 Wellington Street, Bethnal Green.
Is that far from Bow?

[DVV]

Joseph Fleming was born on 17 March 1859.
In November 1872, he was 13 years and 8 months old.
So he could easily give his age as 14.

[Fisherman]

David writes:

"he could easily give his age as 14"

Maybe so, David. But would not his age carry implications for the length of the punishment? Would he not benefit from a lower age in such a case? Just a thought.
All in all, one can´t help feeling that there is a very good chance that this was "our" Joseph Fleming in the making. Starting out with minor offences is often very typical.

The best,
Fisherman