Druitt and Monro

[Scott Nelson]

If Macnaghten showed any indiscretion, it was in allowing Sims and Griffiths access to the memo, though neither man named names.

However, most curiously--and he knew these people whereas you don't--Chief Inspector Littlechild thought that Griffiths got his information, not from Macnaghten, but from Anderson. Rather an interesting footnote, that.

The following may be controversial, but here goes:

What if it was Sims who annotated the letter he got from Littlechild? Sims being an editor couldn't resist applying his editorial hand. So it was Sims who wrote at the bottom of Littlechild's letter, "Except that I knew Major Griffiths for many years. He probably got his information from Anderson who only thought he knew". So it could be Sims writing that it was himself who knew Griffiths for many years and that it was also he who believed that Anderson only thought he knew (who the Ripper was). Sims was a strong advocate of the drowned doctor theory.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jonathan,

So, you're now the nom de plume of Keith Skinner?

I am not accusing anybody of anything. I will simply say that in this instance there's no arguing with the facts.

My best wishes to you both.

Simon

[jmenges]

Hi Simon,

I’m glad to see you…it’s been too long.
Keith’s words are all his own, I’m but a simple messenger.

Enjoy your redistricting…I know we will,

JM

[Herlock Sholmes]

Jon H


RIDDLE ME THIS, RIPPERLAND:

If Melville Macnaghten in 1894 only had access to, say, P.C. Moulson's report on the recovery of Druitt's body, how did he know about William Druitt's search for his missing sibling?

This episode, which we only know about from the Chiswick article, is to be found in George Sims' writings: 1904; 1907; 1913, albeit thinly fictionalised. It is also in Macnaghten's 1914 memoirs where it is more veiled; alluded to cryptically and awkwardly: the "protean" maniac "resided with his own people" and they noticed he was "absented at certain times", e.g. missing (because unless you are a prisoner, then just going out for an evening cannot be considered being AWOL).

From the 1913 article, Sims, and behind him Macnaghten, knew that Druitt (written as "D.......") lodged in Blackheath. How so, if they only knew inaccurate information about the man they believed - rightly or wrongly - was "Jack the Ripper"?

In the 1911 short story version of "The Lodger" by Marie Belloc Lowndes, the landlord is brought to see the body of the man who has been his dodgy lodger with deep pockets. The corpse has been recovered from Regent's Canal where Mr Sleuth has drowned himself because, the readers know, the maniac feared - wrongly - that a Police Commissioner (described as tall, handsome and charming) had recognised him at Madame Tussauds as an escaped and dangerous lunatic. The landlord identifies the soggy remains on the side of the embankment as his lodger, but in order to avoid reputational ruin an anxious Mr Bunting keeps to himself that he also believes this dead man is "The Avenger"; the religious fanatic who has been fatally stabbing drunken women he has found sleeping it off in London's meaner streets.

Why was this bit cut from the 1913 novel version, so that Mr Sleuth - much less satisfyingly - simply vanishes and presumed to be a suicide? Was it because it was too close to the Druitt knuckle...?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Jon H


RIDDLE ME THIS, RIPPERLAND:

If Melville Macnaghten in 1894 only had access to, say, P.C. Moulson's report on the recovery of Druitt's body, how did he know about William Druitt's search for his missing sibling?

This episode, which we only know about from the Chiswick article, is to be found in George Sims' writings: 1904; 1907; 1913, albeit thinly fictionalised. It is also in Macnaghten's 1914 memoirs where it is more veiled; alluded to cryptically and awkwardly: the "protean" maniac "resided with his own people" and they noticed he was "absented at certain times", e.g. missing (because unless you are a prisoner, then just going out for an evening cannot be considered being AWOL).

From the 1913 article, Sims, and behind him Macnaghten, knew that Druitt (written as "D.......") lodged in Blackheath. How so, if they only knew inaccurate information about the man they believed - rightly or wrongly - was "Jack the Ripper"?

In the 1911 short story version of "The Lodger" by Marie Belloc Lowndes, the landlord is brought to see the body of the man who has been his dodgy lodger with deep pockets. The corpse has been recovered from Regent's Canal where Mr Sleuth has drowned himself because, the readers know, the maniac feared - wrongly - that a Police Commissioner (described as tall, handsome and charming) had recognised him at Madame Tussauds as an escaped and dangerous lunatic. The landlord identifies the soggy remains on the side of the embankment as his lodger, but in order to avoid reputational ruin an anxious Mr Bunting keeps to himself that he also believes this dead man is "The Avenger"; the religious fanatic who has been fatally stabbing drunken women he has found sleeping it off in London's meaner streets.

Why was this bit cut from the 1913 novel version, so that Mr Sleuth - much less satisfyingly - simply vanishes and presumed to be a suicide? Was it because it was too close to the Druitt knuckle...?

Just to be clear, as I posted this in a bit of a hurry, this is from Jon Hainsworth.

[jmenges]

Just to be clear, as I posted this in a bit of a hurry, this is from Jon Hainsworth.

Just be advised that if any proxy posts contain personal attacks- or violate any rules- you’ll both be suffering the consequences.

JM

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just be advised that if any proxy posts contain personal attacks- or violate any rules- you’ll both be suffering the consequences.

JM

Understood Jon.

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, Trevor.

But maybe it would be more useful if someone who believes this theory would supply the evidence that Druitt was connected to this alleged 'brothel'?

I'll help.

Someone who Druitt later knew--how well, is hard to say, but fairly well--once had his name jotted down in a list of addresses made by Harry Wilson while he was at Cambridge. Harry Wilson was a friend of Prince Eddy and JK Stephen. But haven't you jotted down names and addresses of people you've barely known? Who knows why he did so?

Wilson later kept rooms at The Osiers in Chiswick--which was not a male brothel; it was owned by a highly respectable family.

And there is not a jot of evidence that Druitt knew Wilson or ever went to the Osiers. Nor was he part of the Cambridge clique. It was an entertaining tale that attempted to link Druitt to Prince Eddy and JK Stephen back when the "Royal Conspiracy" was in vogue and JK Stephen was considered a suspect.

One could, of course, rake Skinner and Howells over the coals, and jeer and accuse them of falsehoods, as Fiver is now doing with the Hainsworths, but the book contains a lot of original and very interesting research, so I would rather look at the good in it. I'm more interested in what the efforts of serious researchers might tell us and avoid joining the 'naysayer' mania that has infested this field. While their thesis is (in my view) wrong, there was some good in it.

Anyway, if Druitt was a frequenter of The Osiers he would have gotten off at the correct stop, which I believe was Ravenscourt, and not Hammersmith.

Thanks for your time.

I have one question: was the Osiers also known as The Chummery?

And Druitt must have been a member of this club, as his body was found in close proximity to the club

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fiver]

Jon H


RIDDLE ME THIS, RIPPERLAND:

If Melville Macnaghten in 1894 only had access to, say, P.C. Moulson's report on the recovery of Druitt's body, how did he know about William Druitt's search for his missing sibling?

Here's what Macnaghton said in 1894.

"A Mr M. J. Druitt, said to be a doctor & of good family -- who disappeared at the time of the Miller's Court murder, & whose body (which was said to have been upwards of a month in the water) was found in the Thames on 31st December -- or about 7 weeks after that murder. He was sexually insane and from private information I have little doubt but that his own family believed him to have been the murderer." - Macnaghten Memorandum.

So where does Macnaghten mention William Druitt's search for his missing sibling?

[Fiver]

Jon H


RIDDLE ME THIS, RIPPERLAND:

If Melville Macnaghten in 1894 only had access to, say, P.C. Moulson's report on the recovery of Druitt's body, how did he know about William Druitt's search for his missing sibling?

This episode, which we only know about from the Chiswick article, is to be found in George Sims' writings: 1904; 1907; 1913, albeit thinly fictionalised.

Lets look at Sims in 1907.

"The third man was a doctor who lived in a suburb about six miles from Whitechapel, and who suffered from a horrible form of homicidal mania, a mania which leads the victim to look upon women of a certain class with frenzied hatred.

The doctor had been an inmate of a lunatic asylum for some time, and had been liberated and regained his complete freedom.

After the maniacal murder in Miller's court, the doctor disappeared from the place in which he had been living, and his disappearance caused inquiries to be made concerning him by his friends who had, there is reason to believe, their own suspicions about him, and these inquiries about him were made through the proper authorities.

A month after the last murder the body of the doctor was found in the Thames. There was everything about it to suggest that it had been in the river for nearly a month."

Attributes of Sims suspect are:
* "The third man was a doctor" Druitt was a teacher and solicitor.
* "lived in a suburb about six miles from Whitechapel" This fits Druitt.
* "The doctor had been an inmate of a lunatic asylum for some time, and had been liberated and regained his complete freedom.". This does not fit Druitt. It also contradicts both of the Hainsworth asylum stories, which also contradict each other.
* "After the maniacal murder in Miller's court, the doctor disappeared from the place in which he had been living" Druitt appeared in court at the Royal Courts of Justice in a registration appeal on 27th November 1888.
* "his disappearance caused inquiries to be made concerning him by his friends" This does not match Druitt, his brother was the one who searched for him.
* "these inquiries about him were made through the proper authorities." We don't know when, or if William Druitt reported his brother's disappearance to the police. It's possible that the police identified Montague Druitt from the cheques found on his body and they contacted his brother William.
* "A month after the last murder the body of the doctor was found in the Thames." Drutt's body was found about 7 weeks after the Kelly murder.

Sims suspect is a mix of correct and wildly inaccurate things about Druitt. It does not present a "thinly fictionalised" account of "William Druitt's search for his missing sibling". It says the missing doctor's friends contacted the police.

[Fiver]

Jon H

RIDDLE ME THIS, RIPPERLAND:

If Melville Macnaghten in 1894 only had access to, say, P.C. Moulson's report on the recovery of Druitt's body, how did he know about William Druitt's search for his missing sibling?

This episode, which we only know about from the Chiswick article, is to be found in George Sims' writings: 1904; 1907; 1913, albeit thinly fictionalised. It is also in Macnaghten's 1914 memoirs where it is more veiled; alluded to cryptically and awkwardly: the "protean" maniac "resided with his own people" and they noticed he was "absented at certain times", e.g. missing (because unless you are a prisoner, then just going out for an evening cannot be considered being AWOL).

Now lets look at Days of My Years by Melville Macnaghten.

"Not infrequently the maniac possesses a diseased body, and this was probably so in the case of the Whitechapel murderer. Many residents in the East End (and some in the West!) came under suspicion of police, but though several persons were detained, no one was ever charged with these offences.

Only last autumn I was very much interested in a book entitled The Lodger, which set forth in vivid colours what the Whitechapel murderer's life might have been while dwelling in London lodgings. The talented authoress portrayed him as a religious enthusiast, gone crazy over the belief that he was predestined to slaughter a certain number of unfortunate women, and that he had been confined in a criminal lunatic asylum and had escaped therefrom. I do not think that there was anything of religious mania about the real Simon Pure, nor do I believe that he had ever been detained in an asylum, nor lived in lodgings. I incline to the belief that the individual who held up London in terror resided with his own people ; that he absented himself from home at certain times, and that he committed suicide on or about the 10th of November 1888, after he had knocked out a Commissioner of Police and very nearly settled the hash of one of Her Majesty's principal Secretaries of State."

* "Not infrequently the maniac possesses a diseased body, and this was probably so in the case of the Whitechapel murderer." Druitt was one of the most physically fit Ripper suspects.
* We don't know the Ripper's motive, so we can't assess whether it was "religious mania". I'm inclined to agree with Macnaghten on this point.
* Druitt was never in asylum. Macnaghten is right on this point.
* Druitt lived at the school, not "with his own people". William Druitt could not have noticed that Montague "absented himself from home at certain times" since they did not live together.
* Druitt did not commit suicide "on or about the 10th of November 1888". Macnaghten is wrong on this point.

So Macnaghten, in addition to being wrong about Druitt's age, occupation, health, lodgings, and time of death; does not present a "veiled; alluded" account of "William Druitt's search for his missing sibling". He doesn't present any account of William Druitt's search for his missing sibling.

[rjpalmer]

Sims suspect is a mix of correct and wildly inaccurate things about Druitt.

Sorry Fiver, but you haven't proven this in the least, and your own errors and superficial pronouncements do not inspire confidence.

That Simis is giving misinformation is just your assumption--your reading of the source materials---coupled with the usual reductionist thinking that motivates so many.

The only provable 'inaccuracy' --if one wants to call it that--is Sims' continual reference to Druitt being a doctor. That can't be denied. Personally, I consider this more of a mystery than an inaccuracy, but to each his own.

The rest of what Sims is reporting might well be true, and a careful reading proves that Sims knew more than what would have been in PC Moulson's report, etc.

For instance, Sims' claim, 'his disappearance caused inquiries to be made concerning him by his friends' is absolutely confirmable/

Yet you write this up as if it is an inaccuracy which is nonsensical.

'Friends' in Victorian lingo included family members. We know that William Druitt did make inquiries after Druitt's disappearance and it is entirely sensible to believe other would have as well. I mean, for gawd's sake, we know Druitt's peers at his law office DID contact William after Druitt's absence--so they DID make inquiries.

Thus, you're claiming inaccuracy on Sims' part when any rational, objective viewer would see that he does, in fact, have reliable information.

Which again demonstrates you're operating on an agenda of debunking when a more even keeled observer would simply be attempting to get at the truth of what happened and would be treating the source material in a more even-handed manner.

But why am I wasting my breath? Good-bye

[rjpalmer]

I have one question: was the Osiers also known as The Chummery?

And Druitt must have been a member of this club, as his body was found in close proximity to the club

Yes, the Osiers (the white building in the photo below) was the name of the house. 'Wilson's Chummery' was a nickname for the house by Wilson's "chums." It is known (from private letters) that Wilson once invited Albert Victor to visit so he could watch the famous Oxford/Cambridge boatrace. You can see how close it is to The Thames.

And my apologies for not calling him Prince Albert Victor but seeing that some royals are losing their titles these days and I'm enjoying the trend, I thought I'd leave it out.

RP

[Paddy Goose]

We, all of us now know Montague Druitt was in Dorset playing cricket in Blanford on the 30th of August and in Canford the 1st of September. I personally feel he was not in London, in Whitechapel to commit the murder of Polly Nichols in Whitechapel in the wee hours of 31st of August. That is my opinion.

I always found Jonathan's 'case disguised" theory appealing. But not so much now. And it makes we wonder. We, all of us know the exact dates of the Ripper murders. But did his family? The family that supposedly suspected him of being the fiend. Did they know of the Dorset cricket matches on those particular dates, bookending the Nichols murde ? And what of Macnaghten, did he know? Along with the others, the Vicar, Dorset MP, Henry Farquharson, Sims?

To me this puts a giant kink in the Druitt suspect theory. and this entire group of other "sources," Monro included.

[Fiver]

Sorry Fiver, but you haven't proven this in the least, and your own errors and superficial pronouncements do not inspire confidence.

That Simis is giving misinformation is just your assumption--your reading of the source materials---coupled with the usual reductionist thinking that motivates so many.

The only provable 'inaccuracy' --if one wants to call it that--is Sims' continual reference to Druitt being a doctor. That can't be denied. Personally, I consider this more of a mystery than an inaccuracy, but to each his own.

I quoted Sims. Sims got several things wrong.

Druitt was not a doctor.
Druitt had not been in an asylum before the murders.
Druitt had not been released from an asylum as cured.
Druitt did not disappear immediately after the Kelly murder.
Druitt was searched for by his brother, not by his friends.
Druitt's body was found nearly two months after the Keely murder.

Druitt's court appearances, cricket games, and attendance of social events show that he was not placed in an asylum. Redefining "friends' to mean "brother" does not change the meaning of friends.

Sims, like other drowned doctor stories gets many things wrong. That makes it probable he well down the gossip chain.