Druitt and Monro

[caz]

Hi Jon,

Didn't the cricket club relieve him of his job as treasurer because he told them he was going abroad, and might not he have told William the same thing? That would explain why William wasn't initially concerned about him not having been seen at his chambers for over a week in early December. Perhaps it was only when he failed to turn up for the new school term that William became concerned.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

Due to the ambiguity in those days about the meaning of 'gone abroad' [which could equally mean 'buggered off somewhere'], it would have been made clear if the belief was that Druitt had literally left the country. He had disappeared and nobody was claiming to know where he was, so why would it have been speculated that he wasn't even in England?

In general in English prep schools, the autumn term would have begun in September and ended a week or two before Christmas. The spring term would not then commence until early January. So it could be speculated that Druitt went missing, or was dismissed, before the end of the autumn term, but not turning up for 'the new school term' was inevitable if his body was found during the holidays.

One question that springs to mind is why nobody thought to check Druitt's room at the school shortly after he left it for the last time, whether he had buggered off one day without so much as a "by your leave", or was given his sandwiches wrapped in a road map for some other form of 'serious trouble'. Leaving his personal effects at the school should have been a red flag in either situation, unless he had left word of his intention to return for them at some point. In the event he didn't return, but it was his absence from chambers for over a week that caused the most concern. I suspect that Valentine's mindset at the time might have been one of "least said, soonest mended".

Love,

Caz
X

[mklhawley]

To Trevor

The catalyst for Druitt as a suspect is not Macnaghten's Memo of 1894, but rather the Dorset MP, Henry Farquharson's press leak of 1891.

Your next paragraph is a hopeless jumble of Macnaghten's draft version and his memoir chapter of 1914 (for example, in neither version of his memo does he claim Druitt lives with his family. That's implied in "Days of My Years".

Also there are no extent "Macnaghten notes". The draft or Aberconway version is not only complete, it's suspect contents were disseminated to the public in 1894 and from 1898 via Major Griffiths. George Sims in 1903 will refer to this document as a definitive Home Office Report - which but isn't.

The term "doctor" was interchangeable with "medical student". For this kind of loose definition look no further than Abberline's interview of 1903 in which he refers to Druitt as both a "doctor" and a "young student". There are other examples where Druitt is referred to as a medical student, which he could well have been though never graduating.

Macnaghten fudging the details of Druitt's particulars is because he anticipated that if he sent the draft the Home Sec would reveal enough for the Druitts to be ruined in the respectable circles in which they moved and worked.

In the late Victorian and Edwardian eras details about Druitt as definitely the fiend were propagated to the public on Macnaghten's behalf. But those details were a mix if fact and fiction which protected the family. Now, either that was lucky for them or it was a deliberate bit of gentlemanly discretion.

Macnaghten did not base his opinion about Druitt on rumour or hearsay. As he revealed to a reporter in 1913, the secret had come to him, personally,about this "remarkable man" and therefore the documents proving his guilt were his property to destroy.

There is nothing in the extant primary sources that Druitt was gay, of part of a gay group at Chiswick or murdered because of homosexuality or any connection to the royals. Howell and Skinner were way off track because they lacked critical sources

Rather everything that has been discovered in the past few decades points to Macnaghten having conferred - privately, discreetly and solo - with certain members of the Druitt family. Instead of him convincing them that they suffered from a delusion about their deceased member, they convinced the police chief of Montague's secret identity as a murderer. All of Mac's actions from 1891 were predicated on this belief, one which he would take to his premature grave in 1921.

[caz]

Can you give any examples of this contemporary usage?

I’ve seen this interpretation made before when Druitt is being discussed, but no one ever gives any source for this interpretation, while, by contrast, I’ve seen hundreds of examples of Victorians using the phrase “gone abroad” to mean “left the country.”

Thanks.

Witches were said to go abroad at Halloween. Did they all fly off on their broomsticks to America for trick or treat? Or was it merely a synonym of 'at large', or 'on the loose', as naughty people are described when they are roaming free and not where they are supposed to be?

The reason I don't think anyone meant that Druitt had literally left England's shores is because nobody was claiming to know where he was. He was Nowhere Man until his body was dragged from the Thames.

Does anyone here believe the reference to 'gone abroad' was leaked by someone who knew Druitt was not in England?

[rjpalmer]

this is getting ridiculous. perhaps the hainsworths should get on here and debate directly. its rather disconcerting with this go between stuff and apparently they can break forum rules by direct personal attacks, calling people trolls, with no apparent repercussions, because, you know, theyre not actually on the forum lol.

I agree that people should post for themselves if they’re going to contribute to this forum, but not being a moderator my opinion on the matter is as irrelevant as yours and everyone else’s. If nothing else, posting for yourself makes it easier to determine who is saying what.

But I think it is far lamer and damaging to the quality of discourse for people to post demonstrably bogus insinuations and accusations under the cover of anonymity. Isn’t that worse? At least I know who the Hainsworths are—-they aren’t hiding behind an alias.

[jmenges]

There is nothing in the extant primary sources that Druitt was gay, of part of a gay group at Chiswick or murdered because of homosexuality or any connection to the royals. Howell and Skinner were way off track because they lacked critical sources

Couldn't agree more! Early in 1988 Paul Begg drove a Van Helsing stake through our theory in The Ripper Legacy which was essentially based on circumstantial evidence and our naivety and inexperience as researchers - although the Wimborne ball in Dec (?) 1888 did give us pause. I doubt whether either of us would have recognised an extant primary or "critical" source if it had presented itself to us. One newspaper critic wrote of our book that the "two actors should have stuck to acting." I countered by saying that if he had ever seen Martin and I act, he would know why we switched to writing!

KS

[rjpalmer]

Couldn't agree more! Early in 1988 Paul Begg drove a Van Helsing stake through our theory in The Ripper Legacy which was essentially based on circumstantial evidence and our naivety and inexperience as researchers - although the Wimborne ball in Dec (?) 1888 did give us pause. I doubt whether either of us would have recognised an extant primary or "critical" source if it had presented itself to us. One newspaper critic wrote of our book that the "two actors should have stuck to acting." I countered by saying that if he had ever seen Martin and I act, he would know why we switched to writing!

KS

Maybe you two could print a retraction?

As you may have noticed, Ed Stow and Trevor Marriott are still repeating the bilge that the 'Chummery' was a male brothel and that Druitt was connected to it, even though both claims are utterly bogus.

Which is why I can't take seriously anything they have to say about Druitt.

Cheers.

[rjpalmer]

Witches were said to go abroad at Halloween. Did they all fly off on their broomsticks to America for trick or treat? Or was it merely a synonym of 'at large', or 'on the loose', as naughty people are described when they are roaming free and not where they are supposed to be?

Please focus, Caz. I was merely questioning your claim that "going abroad typically meant that the person's current whereabouts were unknown."

An example of a witch going abroad on Halloween doesn't have anything to do with her "whereabouts being unknown."

Nor does it shed any light on what the cricket club meant by Druitt having 'gone abroad.'

I'm specifically attempting to find the source for the often-made claim that 'gone abroad' meant his 'whereabouts were unknown.' Is this supposedly a phrase found in legal documents or something of the kind?

I'm not attempting to be argumentative. As I say, there are hundreds of examples in print during the Victorian era where 'gone abroad' meant left the country, gone to Europe, etc. Which is not to say the cricket club didn't know better.

Pall Mall Budget 19 Dec 1889

[jmenges]

Proxy posting is allowed for individuals who have not been banned from the boards.

This goes for everyone- if you are posting on behalf of others you must sign off on your posts accordingly.
Also, any proxy posting that involves personal attacks will lead to the posting account receiving infractions.
Warnings have been issued.

JM

[The Rookie Detective]

Genuine question.


If we take MM out of the equation entirely, does Druitt's candidacy still hold up regardless?

If Druitt was the Ripper; and he may well have been, then he wouldn't need MM in the first place, as his guilt would ultimately speak for itself.

As long as there's no way that Druitt was made a scapegoat in a bid to make it all go away, and MM didn't jump on a self serving bandwagon that ensured his legacy endured, then I think Druitt is a very viable person of interest.

It's interesting that he was concerned about turning into his mother; although I don't recall any reports of her being a psychopathic dehumanising post mortem mutilator who targeted reproductive organs and played with them.


I'm guessing that wasn't quite what Druitt meant.

[Fiver]

Couldn't agree more! Early in 1988 Paul Begg drove a Van Helsing stake through our theory in The Ripper Legacy which was essentially based on circumstantial evidence and our naivety and inexperience as researchers - although the Wimborne ball in Dec (?) 1888 did give us pause. I doubt whether either of us would have recognised an extant primary or "critical" source if it had presented itself to us. One newspaper critic wrote of our book that the "two actors should have stuck to acting." I countered by saying that if he had ever seen Martin and I act, he would know why we switched to writing!

KS

Props to you for having a sense of humor and being willing to change your views when presented with evidence. Those are rare, both on this forum and in real life.

[Fiver]

It's interesting that he was concerned about turning into his mother; although I don't recall any reports of her being a psychopathic dehumanising post mortem mutilator who targeted reproductive organs and played with them.


I'm guessing that wasn't quite what Druitt meant.

I suspect the same, but people favoring Druitt as a suspect interpret it as he did not want to end up in an asylum.

Here's a thread on Ann Druiit's medical condition.

"This letter is from her physician in Brighton to her new caregiver Dr. Thomas Tuke of the Manor House in Chiswick. In the below letter to Tuke, her doctor lays out his knowledge of her past medical history up until 1890, the year she enters Manor House Asylum:

127 Eastern Rd
Brighton
June 6th, 1890

Dear Mr. Tuke,
I gladly accede to Mr. Druitt’s wish that I should give you a short account of her case, so far as I know it.
She was brought down to Brighton on leave of absence from Brooke House in the summer of ’88, and placed under my care. I never had any history of her case from the asylum authorities, but I gathered she had an attack of melancholia with stupor, from which she was slowly emerging.
I was told she had diabetes, and that Dr. Pavy had ordered her a special diet; but the urine, frequently examined since, has never shown more than slight signs of sugar and occasional traces of albumen.
She slowly improved, and the leave was prolonged from time to time until it was inadvertently allowed to run out in the beginning of ’89. It was then impossible to recertify her, her condition being one mainly of apathy with an unreasonable refusal to spend money; but these symptoms increased, so that she was placed under certificates in April of last year.
She continued more or less in the same state till this winter when she had, as I believe, an attack of influenza. Her mind was quite clear for some days during the attack; but the symptoms of melancholia and stupor became much worse after. Especially her refusal of food became more obstinate, and for the last two months she has been almost entirely fed with the stomach-tube.
She has always been very obstinate and latterly has been violent when thwarted. When in this condition, bromides have appeared to suit her; otherwise she seemed to gain most from occasional use of Indian hemp for a week or two. The bowels have been regulated by Jalapine glycerin enemata.
Last year when she was communicative, she evidently had hallucinations that she was being electrified; latterly it has been difficult to elicit anything, but her refusal of food has been justified by her alleging there is no esophageal passage.

If there is any other point which you wish me to tell you, I shall be happy to write again, and am,
Yours faithfully,"

[Darryl Kenyon]

In Victorian slang, or more accurately an older, more archaic usage of the word "abroad", the phrase "gone abroad" meant simply that a person was not at home, out of doors, or elsewhere in the local area. It did not necessarily mean they had traveled to a foreign country, as it primarily means today.

Off AI

I do know that the term was used [I remember seeing it ] but I can't find the source . When I first looked it up I wondered if it was a euphemism for Homosexuality. Such as " He is Batting for the wrong team "

Regards Darryl

[jmenges]

It's interesting that he was concerned about turning into his mother; although I don't recall any reports of her being a psychopathic dehumanising post mortem mutilator who targeted reproductive organs and played with them.

Predicated on Ann Druitt's medical notes which Paul discovered at the beginning of 1988, Paul wrote that Ann Druitt's medical state began to deteriorate after the death of her husband in 1885. "She developed delusions and became melancholic (defined at the time as a form of clinical depression accompanied by strong suicidal urges). She attempted to take her life with an overdose of laudanum (tincture of opium)."

KS

[Trevor Marriott]

Maybe you two could print a retraction?

As you may have noticed, Ed Stow and Trevor Marriott are still repeating the bilge that the 'Chummery' was a male brothel and that Druitt was connected to it, even though both claims are utterly bogus.

Which is why I can't take seriously anything they have to say about Druitt.

Cheers.

Have you any evidence to dismiss what Skinner and Howells published about The Chummery and Druitt's involvement with the club and his sexuality?

I believe Druitt was fished out of the thames at Chiswick where the Chummery was located

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fiver]

Jon has let me know he had a good laugh at my 'diagnosis' but advised me not to waste any more time defending him and Chris anymore. It's pointless; some of the people really are deranged and unfair, e.g. always shamelessly moving the goal posts or relitigating what has been settled.

Not a minute later Fiver proved exactly their point by trying to argue that Druitt is not Macnaghten's suspect/solution?!?

Here you get what I said wrong - again. (I note you never actually quote me.)

"If the Druitts wanted to be assured of discretion, then Macnaughton was an abysmal choice as he repeatedly claimed that Montague Druitt was the Ripper."

Clearly Macnaghten favored Druitt as a suspect. My point is that his "information" was so flawed that I doubt his source was the Druitt family.

"So Macnaghten, who got most everything right about the murders, was wrong about Druitt's age, occupation, health, lodgings, and time of death. That implies that the problem was not with Macnaghten's memory, but with his sources about Druitt. How could Macnaghten be so very wrong in so many ways if his information came from the Druitt family?"

"Also, Macnaghten got almost everything wrong about Druitt. Direct contact with the family would have prevented these errors, so I remain extremely doubtful that Macnaghten got his information from the Druitt family."