Druitt and Monro

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    Commissioner
    • May 2017
    • 23462

    #1

    Druitt and Monro

    I was just checking something about Monro and saw this on Wikipedia and it reminded me that it was something else that I had meant to look into and ask opinions on.

    In 1995 Monro's grandson, Christopher Monro, disclosed that Monro had been convinced that Montague Druitt had been Jack the Ripper but was prevented from saying so. William Druitt, brother of Montague, had threatened that if his brother was named, he would reveal that there were homosexuals in high positions in Parliament, the Bar, the Army and the Church. Christopher Monro was told this by his father Douglas Monro, who had examined Monro's papers after his death.”

    Wiki gives the source for this as Colin Kendall, Jack The Ripper: The Theories and the Facts, Amberley, 2010. I recall watching Colin Kendall years ago answering questions on Jack the Ripper on Mastermind so I dug out his book. This is a brief rundown of what he said.

    After a rundown of Druitt’s background, the discovery of the Macnaghten Memorandum, Abberline’s opinion, Farson, Cullen etc he moves on to The Ripper Legacy by Keith Skinner and Martin Howells (1987). For anyone who hasn’t read the book their theory was that Druitt had become involved with a group of homosexual men from the upper echelons of society (including The Duke of Clarence) The police became aware that Druitt was the ripper but didn’t arrest him due to his relationship to Clarence so the group killed him to make sure that the truth didn’t come out. Naturally a theory of this kind didn’t find favour with all but we should remember that Keith Skinner is a well respected researcher. On to Monro…

    When Monro died in 1920 his papers were passed to his eldest son Charles who showed them to his brother Douglas who apparently said: “Burn the stuff, Charlie - burn it and forget it.” Unfortunately for us that’s exactly what he did. In 1995 Kendall received a letter from Christopher Monro who was Douglas Monro’s son (and Sir James’s grandson of course) and in that letter he mentioned being contacted by Howells and Skinner to do with a letter that Monro had written to The Radio Times after listening to a play about the ripper murders. The letter ended:

    My grandfather had his own views on the identity of the Ripper, but came back into office too late to deal with the case as he would have wished. He bequeathed his notes on the affair to his eldest son who died in 1928, it is possible that some cousin of mine may retain them to this day.

    A granddaughter of Monro’s tried to put them in contact with Christopher and sent the two authors on to Dr. James Monro in Edinburgh who was Sir James’s eldest grandson where they found his papers tucked behind a cupboard. They examined them and among them they found notes on many notable criminal cases but there was no mention of the ripper murders (because those notes had been burned). In his letter to Kendall, Christopher Monro went on to describe a meeting between his father (Douglas) and his uncle (Charles). Christopher was in the garden outside the study window when he heard the raised voice of his uncle saying:

    No, no! Burn the stuff, Charlie - burn all of it.” Followed by:

    Think of the scandal to both Winchester and Trinity.”


    Christopher Monro then related the story of being holed up in a Himalayan village with his father in 1939, describing him as being like an old man who was expecting death. His father wanted to get the story off his chest about disposing of Sir James’s papers and the story within them about Jack the Ripper. Although no name was mentioned in his grandfather’s papers he believed that it was clear that when Monro took over from Warren he believed that Druitt was the ripper and that he was prepared to make his suspicions public but was prevented by Druitt’s brother, William, who threatened to go public with a list of prominent homosexuals.

    Kendall wondered why Douglas had been concerned about scandal for Winchester and Trinity as Druitt had only attended Winchester but he had told Christopher that the Trinity problem would have occurred had the group of homosexuals been revealed. James Monro was supposed to have said that the ripper was never caught but he should have been although we have no written evidence for this. All of this is word of mouth family stuff which, while not proving anything, it certainly doesn’t make it untrue.

    An interesting snippet in Howells and Skinner’s book is taken from the Southern Guardian saying that on 17th December 1888 The Duke of Clarence made the unplanned decision to join Lord Wimborne’s shooting party resulting in the hasty arrangement of a ball in his honour. The Royal family were in mourning for Prince Alexander of Hesse at the time and apparently eyebrows were raised about Eddy’s decision. On the guest list a man at the time lying at the bottom of the Thames, Montague John Druitt.



    The fact that some treat Druitt as if he’s unworthy of interest is a constant source of surprise and disappointment. As far as I’m concerned. Druitt is the most intriguing of suspects.
    Herlock Sholmes

    ”I don’t know who Jack the Ripper was…and neither do you.”
  • Abby Normal
    Commissioner
    • Jun 2010
    • 12009

    #2
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    I was just checking something about Monro and saw this on Wikipedia and it reminded me that it was something else that I had meant to look into and ask opinions on.

    In 1995 Monro's grandson, Christopher Monro, disclosed that Monro had been convinced that Montague Druitt had been Jack the Ripper but was prevented from saying so. William Druitt, brother of Montague, had threatened that if his brother was named, he would reveal that there were homosexuals in high positions in Parliament, the Bar, the Army and the Church. Christopher Monro was told this by his father Douglas Monro, who had examined Monro's papers after his death.”

    Wiki gives the source for this as Colin Kendall, Jack The Ripper: The Theories and the Facts, Amberley, 2010. I recall watching Colin Kendall years ago answering questions on Jack the Ripper on Mastermind so I dug out his book. This is a brief rundown of what he said.

    After a rundown of Druitt’s background, the discovery of the Macnaghten Memorandum, Abberline’s opinion, Farson, Cullen etc he moves on to The Ripper Legacy by Keith Skinner and Martin Howells (1987). For anyone who hasn’t read the book their theory was that Druitt had become involved with a group of homosexual men from the upper echelons of society (including The Duke of Clarence) The police became aware that Druitt was the ripper but didn’t arrest him due to his relationship to Clarence so the group killed him to make sure that the truth didn’t come out. Naturally a theory of this kind didn’t find favour with all but we should remember that Keith Skinner is a well respected researcher. On to Monro…

    When Monro died in 1920 his papers were passed to his eldest son Charles who showed them to his brother Douglas who apparently said: “Burn the stuff, Charlie - burn it and forget it.” Unfortunately for us that’s exactly what he did. In 1995 Kendall received a letter from Christopher Monro who was Douglas Monro’s son (and Sir James’s grandson of course) and in that letter he mentioned being contacted by Howells and Skinner to do with a letter that Monro had written to The Radio Times after listening to a play about the ripper murders. The letter ended:

    My grandfather had his own views on the identity of the Ripper, but came back into office too late to deal with the case as he would have wished. He bequeathed his notes on the affair to his eldest son who died in 1928, it is possible that some cousin of mine may retain them to this day.

    A granddaughter of Monro’s tried to put them in contact with Christopher and sent the two authors on to Dr. James Monro in Edinburgh who was Sir James’s eldest grandson where they found his papers tucked behind a cupboard. They examined them and among them they found notes on many notable criminal cases but there was no mention of the ripper murders (because those notes had been burned). In his letter to Kendall, Christopher Monro went on to describe a meeting between his father (Douglas) and his uncle (Charles). Christopher was in the garden outside the study window when he heard the raised voice of his uncle saying:

    No, no! Burn the stuff, Charlie - burn all of it.” Followed by:

    Think of the scandal to both Winchester and Trinity.”


    Christopher Monro then related the story of being holed up in a Himalayan village with his father in 1939, describing him as being like an old man who was expecting death. His father wanted to get the story off his chest about disposing of Sir James’s papers and the story within them about Jack the Ripper. Although no name was mentioned in his grandfather’s papers he believed that it was clear that when Monro took over from Warren he believed that Druitt was the ripper and that he was prepared to make his suspicions public but was prevented by Druitt’s brother, William, who threatened to go public with a list of prominent homosexuals.

    Kendall wondered why Douglas had been concerned about scandal for Winchester and Trinity as Druitt had only attended Winchester but he had told Christopher that the Trinity problem would have occurred had the group of homosexuals been revealed. James Monro was supposed to have said that the ripper was never caught but he should have been although we have no written evidence for this. All of this is word of mouth family stuff which, while not proving anything, it certainly doesn’t make it untrue.

    An interesting snippet in Howells and Skinner’s book is taken from the Southern Guardian saying that on 17th December 1888 The Duke of Clarence made the unplanned decision to join Lord Wimborne’s shooting party resulting in the hasty arrangement of a ball in his honour. The Royal family were in mourning for Prince Alexander of Hesse at the time and apparently eyebrows were raised about Eddy’s decision. On the guest list a man at the time lying at the bottom of the Thames, Montague John Druitt.



    The fact that some treat Druitt as if he’s unworthy of interest is a constant source of surprise and disappointment. As far as I’m concerned. Druitt is the most intriguing of suspects.
    fascinating herlock.

    so theres more talk swirling about druitt from Munro? I didnt know that.

    let me ask you this. we have MM, munro, sims etc mentioning Druitt... Is there any chance that all the talk surrounding druitt originated from a single source, MM. or is any of it independent of MM?
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

    Comment

    • mklhawley
      Chief Inspector
      • Nov 2009
      • 1921

      #3
      Abby, I think that is the significance of the "West of England" MP stories of 1891 in 2008 being linked to the Druitts.

      Henry Farquharson was the Conservative politician and he lived in relative proximity to the Dorset Druitts.

      Although the data from the big-mouthed MP has 'errors', or misdirections ala the Hainsworth thesis, he at least correctly identifies the unnamed Druitt as the "son of a surgeon". There is a follow-up article in which the MP is asked by a reporter if he is wrong because of the arrest of Tom Sadler for Coles' murder. He says: no, that's another murderer, Jack is definitely deceased and at his own hand.

      That means Farquaharson was correct that the authorities would at some point clear Sadler of being "Jack".

      It is highly unlikely Farquharson learned about Druitt from Macnaghten, as the close-mouthed police chief would have known what an unreliable gossip was his fellow Old Etonian. He must have found out from the Druitts, or a Druitt. More likely Macnaghten told the MP in one of their gents' clubs to keep his darned mouth shut.

      Among Chrisitine's many discoveries was that in 1893, Sims, a socialist, had written a partisan poem damning Farquharson as a bully and a gossip, and also condemns him in a comedic way for accusing innocent people of being "Jack the Ripper". It is the only other refrence at the time to Farquharson being the "West of England" MP. The Hainsworths interpret this as misdirection and propaganda because, under the radar, Mcnaghten and Sims completely agreed with Farquharson about Druitt.

      That's the interpretation by Druittists anyhow.
      The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
      http://www.michaelLhawley.com

      Comment

      • The Rookie Detective
        Superintendent
        • Apr 2019
        • 2241

        #4
        Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
        I was just checking something about Monro and saw this on Wikipedia and it reminded me that it was something else that I had meant to look into and ask opinions on.

        In 1995 Monro's grandson, Christopher Monro, disclosed that Monro had been convinced that Montague Druitt had been Jack the Ripper but was prevented from saying so. William Druitt, brother of Montague, had threatened that if his brother was named, he would reveal that there were homosexuals in high positions in Parliament, the Bar, the Army and the Church. Christopher Monro was told this by his father Douglas Monro, who had examined Monro's papers after his death.”

        Wiki gives the source for this as Colin Kendall, Jack The Ripper: The Theories and the Facts, Amberley, 2010. I recall watching Colin Kendall years ago answering questions on Jack the Ripper on Mastermind so I dug out his book. This is a brief rundown of what he said.

        After a rundown of Druitt’s background, the discovery of the Macnaghten Memorandum, Abberline’s opinion, Farson, Cullen etc he moves on to The Ripper Legacy by Keith Skinner and Martin Howells (1987). For anyone who hasn’t read the book their theory was that Druitt had become involved with a group of homosexual men from the upper echelons of society (including The Duke of Clarence) The police became aware that Druitt was the ripper but didn’t arrest him due to his relationship to Clarence so the group killed him to make sure that the truth didn’t come out. Naturally a theory of this kind didn’t find favour with all but we should remember that Keith Skinner is a well respected researcher. On to Monro…

        When Monro died in 1920 his papers were passed to his eldest son Charles who showed them to his brother Douglas who apparently said: “Burn the stuff, Charlie - burn it and forget it.” Unfortunately for us that’s exactly what he did. In 1995 Kendall received a letter from Christopher Monro who was Douglas Monro’s son (and Sir James’s grandson of course) and in that letter he mentioned being contacted by Howells and Skinner to do with a letter that Monro had written to The Radio Times after listening to a play about the ripper murders. The letter ended:

        My grandfather had his own views on the identity of the Ripper, but came back into office too late to deal with the case as he would have wished. He bequeathed his notes on the affair to his eldest son who died in 1928, it is possible that some cousin of mine may retain them to this day.

        A granddaughter of Monro’s tried to put them in contact with Christopher and sent the two authors on to Dr. James Monro in Edinburgh who was Sir James’s eldest grandson where they found his papers tucked behind a cupboard. They examined them and among them they found notes on many notable criminal cases but there was no mention of the ripper murders (because those notes had been burned). In his letter to Kendall, Christopher Monro went on to describe a meeting between his father (Douglas) and his uncle (Charles). Christopher was in the garden outside the study window when he heard the raised voice of his uncle saying:

        No, no! Burn the stuff, Charlie - burn all of it.” Followed by:

        Think of the scandal to both Winchester and Trinity.”


        Christopher Monro then related the story of being holed up in a Himalayan village with his father in 1939, describing him as being like an old man who was expecting death. His father wanted to get the story off his chest about disposing of Sir James’s papers and the story within them about Jack the Ripper. Although no name was mentioned in his grandfather’s papers he believed that it was clear that when Monro took over from Warren he believed that Druitt was the ripper and that he was prepared to make his suspicions public but was prevented by Druitt’s brother, William, who threatened to go public with a list of prominent homosexuals.

        Kendall wondered why Douglas had been concerned about scandal for Winchester and Trinity as Druitt had only attended Winchester but he had told Christopher that the Trinity problem would have occurred had the group of homosexuals been revealed. James Monro was supposed to have said that the ripper was never caught but he should have been although we have no written evidence for this. All of this is word of mouth family stuff which, while not proving anything, it certainly doesn’t make it untrue.

        An interesting snippet in Howells and Skinner’s book is taken from the Southern Guardian saying that on 17th December 1888 The Duke of Clarence made the unplanned decision to join Lord Wimborne’s shooting party resulting in the hasty arrangement of a ball in his honour. The Royal family were in mourning for Prince Alexander of Hesse at the time and apparently eyebrows were raised about Eddy’s decision. On the guest list a man at the time lying at the bottom of the Thames, Montague John Druitt.



        The fact that some treat Druitt as if he’s unworthy of interest is a constant source of surprise and disappointment. As far as I’m concerned. Druitt is the most intriguing of suspects.
        Excellent opening post Herlock, and very intriguing.

        As a person who doesn't have a favoured suspect, it helps me to view things from outside the box.

        The story of the burnt papers and the cover up to avoid the exposing of certain individuals being exposed for their involvement with Homosexual activity, is indeed a fascinating area of the case surrounding Druitt.

        It sounds very much a scene straight from the London "swinging 60's."

        If the cover up story is indeed true, then it seems almost certain that among that list of individuals would appear high ranking police officials, barristers and politicians etc...etc...

        And that's what makes the idea of this particular conspiracy theor....sorry, "cover up" all the more appealing in the context of Druitts alleged involvement with the Ripper killings.

        And pushing that idea a little further, it could also be suggested that Druitt was murdered for what he knew.

        The Ripper being a Homosexual isn't something I would assume to be correct, but if the shoe fits etc...

        But for me, it all feels as though every road leads back to MM.

        And that's the crux of the argument right there.


        The question is...

        Does removing MM from the equation, then help to support or hinder Druitts potential candidacy as the Ripper?

        If by removing MM completely from the narrative has no effect and actually helps support Druitt as the Ripper, then it enhances the interest in Druitt considerably.

        However, if everything revolves around the words of MM and he is an integral cog in the Druitt machine, then that for me would reduce the likelihood that Druitt was the Ripper, and was merely silenced for what he knew about the homosexual group, and then made out to be the Ripper to cover for the fact that Druitt knew too much.

        That would essentially make Druitt the scape goat, and by labelling him as the Ripper; he wouldn't have an ounce of defense or sympathy.

        Does Druitt maintain his candidacy as the Ripper without MM?

        If he doesn't, then perhaps MM is the problem and not Druitt.

        If he does, then Druitt certainly deserves a close look.

        As does his brother...

        ...and perhaps even the 30 plus other "barristers" who I have identified that were Involved with "Templeton and Cox" at the time of the murders (the firm who ran from Kings Bench Walk)

        Mitchell Templeton and Edward Cox ran the firm.

        And there's some very interesting individuals that must have either met, been acquainted with, or known of Druitt.

        If the "barrister" route is the correct one, then there's a rabbit hole of data to be found there.

        Or was it a surgeon and not a barrister?

        A barrister surgeon?


        Confused much.
        "Great minds, don't think alike"

        Comment

        • Herlock Sholmes
          Commissioner
          • May 2017
          • 23462

          #5
          Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

          Excellent opening post Herlock, and very intriguing.

          As a person who doesn't have a favoured suspect, it helps me to view things from outside the box.

          I have to stress Chris that I’m not someone that says that Druitt was the ripper. I think that it’s possible that he was. He’s the one that I favour of the currently named suspects and he’s the one that interests me most.

          The story of the burnt papers and the cover up to avoid the exposing of certain individuals being exposed for their involvement with Homosexual activity, is indeed a fascinating area of the case surrounding Druitt.

          It sounds very much a scene straight from the London "swinging 60's."

          If the cover up story is indeed true, then it seems almost certain that among that list of individuals would appear high ranking police officials, barristers and politicians etc...etc...

          And that's what makes the idea of this particular conspiracy theor....sorry, "cover up" all the more appealing in the context of Druitts alleged involvement with the Ripper killings.

          And pushing that idea a little further, it could also be suggested that Druitt was murdered for what he knew.

          The Ripper being a Homosexual isn't something I would assume to be correct, but if the shoe fits etc...

          It might just have been a case of Druitt associating with people who were and who didn’t want the fact revealed. It’s speculation of course but that Druitt mixed in that type of circle isn’t.

          But for me, it all feels as though every road leads back to MM.

          And that's the crux of the argument right there.


          The question is...

          Does removing MM from the equation, then help to support or hinder Druitts potential candidacy as the Ripper?

          If by removing MM completely from the narrative has no effect and actually helps support Druitt as the Ripper, then it enhances the interest in Druitt considerably.

          However, if everything revolves around the words of MM and he is an integral cog in the Druitt machine, then that for me would reduce the likelihood that Druitt was the Ripper, and was merely silenced for what he knew about the homosexual group, and then made out to be the Ripper to cover for the fact that Druitt knew too much.

          I don’t have the same aversion to Macnaghten tbh.

          That would essentially make Druitt the scape goat, and by labelling him as the Ripper; he wouldn't have an ounce of defense or sympathy.

          Does Druitt maintain his candidacy as the Ripper without MM?

          If he doesn't, then perhaps MM is the problem and not Druitt.

          If he does, then Druitt certainly deserves a close look.

          As does his brother...

          ...and perhaps even the 30 plus other "barristers" who I have identified that were Involved with "Templeton and Cox" at the time of the murders (the firm who ran from Kings Bench Walk)

          Mitchell Templeton and Edward Cox ran the firm.

          And there's some very interesting individuals that must have either met, been acquainted with, or known of Druitt.

          If the "barrister" route is the correct one, then there's a rabbit hole of data to be found there.

          Or was it a surgeon and not a barrister?

          A barrister surgeon?

          Or a barrister who was the son of a surgeon?


          Confused much.
          When we look at it there are a lot of “what if’s” and possible links and potential pointers going on in regard to Druitt which seems rather a lot for someone that many claim was selected at random just because he died after the Kelly murder.
          Herlock Sholmes

          ”I don’t know who Jack the Ripper was…and neither do you.”

          Comment

          • Fiver
            Assistant Commissioner
            • Oct 2019
            • 3532

            #6
            Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
            The fact that some treat Druitt as if he’s unworthy of interest is a constant source of surprise and disappointment. As far as I’m concerned. Druitt is the most intriguing of suspects.
            There probably weren't any Ripper murders after Druitt's suicide. Some period people appeared to think that he was the Ripper, but they were laughably wrong on some points about Druitt, like him having recently escaped an asylum. The period accusers claimed that Druitt's family suspected him, but we have no direct evidence that they did so.

            Druitt is an interesting suspect, but we've also seen outright falsehoods posted, like the claim that Druitt was identified and arrested in an 1877 attack on Minnie Cameron. I am dubious of any later claim that someone's ancestor knew who a serial killer was or was a serial killer.

            If the period accusers had been accurate in their descriptions of Druitt, I'd put him as one of the best suspects. Instead, I place him as one of the huge mass of possibles, like the majority of those accused.
            "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

            "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

            Comment

            • Herlock Sholmes
              Commissioner
              • May 2017
              • 23462

              #7
              At the risk of someone accusing me of initiating a Druitt publicity campaign I just wanted to make a point via a hypothetical scenario…

              A London woman announces that she has found the private papers of her father who was a Scotland Yard detective in the 1960’s. In it he states “…at the time I had a strong feeling that Jack the Stripper was a car mechanic from Walthamstow’s called Frank Thompson.

              Everyone scratches their chins and says “never heard of him.

              Then, a few months later, a man finds an old diary belonging to his late mother who lived in Walthamstow. In it he finds that she had written “Off to Scotland Yard tomorrow to see if I can sort out this terrible problem once and for all.”

              Then someone recalls that, in an autobiography of one of the Scotland Yard detectives, he had made a throwaway diary entry comment “I get so many people claiming to know who the killer is. Tomorrow a woman from Walthamstow is coming to see me. It’s probably going to be nonsense.”

              So people start researching Frank Thompson but they find that he appeared to have had a normal life until he was committed to an asylum on the 17th March 1965 (around a month after the final JtS murder) where he remained until his death in 1970.


              Would we, a) consider this an intriguing possible suspect worthy of further research and thought, or b) dismiss him because there was no evidence of his guilt and at the same time assuming that the retired Scotland Yard officer must have been a liar?

              The parallel with Druitt and ‘Frank’ is obvious of course but why is there often such a desire to dismiss him? What if just one of the possibles in regard to Druitt were proven true? For example,

              Druitt’s aunt wrote about going to Cavendish Square to sort out a big problem (she called it an ‘encumbrance.’) The Earl of Crawford lived in Cavendish Square and wrote his letter to Anderson asking him to see a woman who claimed a family link to the ripper. Can we prove that this was Isabella Druitt? No. But can anyone imagine any other relation of a named suspect (agreed of course that it didn’t have to have been a named suspect) getting an audience with the Earl of Crawford? There has to be at least a possibility that this visit was linked to Druitt…so what if it could be proven that this was the case. Is saying that it wasn’t her is any more unbelievable than saying that it was? So what if it was?
              Herlock Sholmes

              ”I don’t know who Jack the Ripper was…and neither do you.”

              Comment

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