Druitt and Me

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Good initial post. As you are aware, I am also fascinated with the MJD story. However, I am not entirely convinced that his death was a suicide, or of the date on which he was sacked, or on his authorship of the so called suicide note, or of the time when it may have been written.

It seems to me that a scenario was constructed by Sugden that involved shifting the date of the sacking from 30 Dec, as testified by William Druitt, to 30 Nov in order to have Sugden's scenario "make sense".

Are you aware of any corroborative evidence for the date of his sacking? It has been suggested that Monty had a severance cheque in his pocket when his body was found, but there is no mention of Valentine's signature on that cheque. Could it have equally been a cheque from a client of his law practice? Might not Monty have been sacked after being a no show at the school for a month?

Could Monty have contemplated a short break overseas, and mentioned it in passing at his last cricket match, but refrained from telling Valentine because he didn't want to be replaced in his position at the school? Did he take out some cash for expenses, and then call at his legal office where he found a couple of cheques from clients. He then buys a return ticket from Charing Cross to Hammersmith, and is not reported to be seen again until his body is retrieved from the Thames a month later.

As for the note found by, and addressed to, William, I find it curious that a note supposedly written on the morning of Saturday Dec 1 would refer to the day before as "since friday" rather than "since yesterday". IMO, the friday referenced would have been a friday previous to 30 Nov, such as friday 9 Nov. Was this Monty confiding in his brother, or someone else writing a note to implicate Monty?

A fascinating case, certainly worthy of further scrutiny.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

Ill definitely reply later but I’m on a bit of a mission until later this afternoon.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Good initial post. As you are aware, I am also fascinated with the MJD story. However, I am not entirely convinced that his death was a suicide, or of the date on which he was sacked, or on his authorship of the so called suicide note, or of the time when it may have been written.

It seems to me that a scenario was constructed by Sugden that involved shifting the date of the sacking from 30 Dec, as testified by William Druitt, to 30 Nov in order to have Sugden's scenario "make sense".

Are you aware of any corroborative evidence for the date of his sacking? It has been suggested that Monty had a severance cheque in his pocket when his body was found, but there is no mention of Valentine's signature on that cheque. Could it have equally been a cheque from a client of his law practice? Might not Monty have been sacked after being a no show at the school for a month?

Could Monty have contemplated a short break overseas, and mentioned it in passing at his last cricket match, but refrained from telling Valentine because he didn't want to be replaced in his position at the school? Did he take out some cash for expenses, and then call at his legal office where he found a couple of cheques from clients. He then buys a return ticket from Charing Cross to Hammersmith, and is not reported to be seen again until his body is retrieved from the Thames a month later.

As for the note found by, and addressed to, William, I find it curious that a note supposedly written on the morning of Saturday Dec 1 would refer to the day before as "since friday" rather than "since yesterday". IMO, the friday referenced would have been a friday previous to 30 Nov, such as friday 9 Nov. Was this Monty confiding in his brother, or someone else writing a note to implicate Monty?

A fascinating case, certainly worthy of further scrutiny.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

There is no corroboration for the actual date of Druitt’s sacking. There’s no way of getting a conclusive answer on this one. If William was told on the 11th that Monty had been missing for over a week would William have really taken19 days to get to London? If the 30th December was the date of Monty’s sacking then either William coincidentally arrived on the same day or else he arrived just after his body was found (after being contacted by the police) Or was it a misprint meaning November 30th? It’s a head-scratcher George and none of us can say that one version is much likelier than another.

Another question is why did William have Monty’s room searched instead of doing it himself? Did he half expect his brother to have committed suicide and he didn’t want to be the one to find him slumped over a desk with his brains blown out?

[Lewis C]

Thanks Lewis. It’s certainly possible that he was removed from his position at the club because of absence but because the club said that he’d ’gone abroad’ this implies that they knew that he wouldn’t be returning (even as just a member) It’s difficult to see why someone would have told them that he’d gone abroad if there was even the slightest chance of someone seeing him around. So, whatever they found out (and who from) it perhaps suggests that it was connected to his sacking from the school around 3 weeks prior to that. We don’t know why he was sacked of course but the school wouldn’t have wanted this information broadcasting (reputation of the school etc). After saying all of that though Lewis we can’t come to any conclusions apart from speculation. Was there someone else who worked at the school who was also a club member?

I don't know if there was anyone else who worked at the school who was also a club member. I agree that the scenario that I described is speculation on my part, but I think that it's a very reasonable possibility. What you suggested is also reasonable.

As far as whether when December 30th was stated, it may have been an error, and what was intended was November 30th, I would ask, if an error was made, wouldn't it be just as likely that December 3rd is what was intended?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't know if there was anyone else who worked at the school who was also a club member. I agree that the scenario that I described is speculation on my part, but I think that it's a very reasonable possibility. What you suggested is also reasonable.

As far as whether when December 30th was stated, it may have been an error, and what was intended was November 30th, I would ask, if an error was made, wouldn't it be just as likely that December 3rd is what was intended?

I’d have to agree that it’s just as likely Lewis. When Druitt said in his suicide note ‘since Friday…’ perhaps something occurred at the school on that day, Friday 31st November? Or perhaps the school found out something about him that day..or some kind of allegation was made which needed looking into which led to Druitt’s sacking, but as it was late on the Friday the decision wasn’t made until the Monday 3rd December as you suggest?

[Kattrup]

As far as whether when December 30th was stated, it may have been an error, and what was intended was November 30th, I would ask, if an error was made, wouldn't it be just as likely that December 3rd is what was intended?

I do not think it as likely, since the paper had “30th”, so yes, a 30 for 3 could have been mistake, but not th for rd as well.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I do not think it as likely, since the paper had “30th”, so yes, a 30 for 3 could have been mistake, but not th for rd as well.

The ‘th’ is certainly the stumbling block Kattrup. I can’t think of a way of explaining it away.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

There is no corroboration for the actual date of Druitt’s sacking. There’s no way of getting a conclusive answer on this one. If William was told on the 11th that Monty had been missing for over a week would William have really taken19 days to get to London? If the 30th December was the date of Monty’s sacking then either William coincidentally arrived on the same day or else he arrived just after his body was found (after being contacted by the police) Or was it a misprint meaning November 30th? It’s a head-scratcher George and none of us can say that one version is much likelier than another.

Another question is why did William have Monty’s room searched instead of doing it himself? Did he half expect his brother to have committed suicide and he didn’t want to be the one to find him slumped over a desk with his brains blown out?

Hi Herlock,

Were we to proceed without taking liberties with the written evidence, we might look on Monty's travelling to his law office, picking up a couple of cheques from clients and buying a return ticket to Hammersmith as just another normal day, without the burden of a sacking the day before. This would occasion contemplation on to which friday the note was referring. William testified that Monty had spent a night with him at Bournemouth in late October. Could that have been the subject friday, with Monty confided the growing pressures of holding two jobs and the possibility of a trip abroad. That might explain why William was not overly concerned with his brother's absence from his chambers. Then, of course, there is friday 9 Nov.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Were we to proceed without taking liberties with the written evidence, we might look on Monty's travelling to his law office, picking up a couple of cheques from clients and buying a return ticket to Hammersmith as just another normal day, without the burden of a sacking the day before. This would occasion contemplation on to which friday the note was referring. William testified that Monty had spent a night with him at Bournemouth in late October. Could that have been the subject friday, with Monty confided the growing pressures of holding two jobs and the possibility of a trip abroad. That might explain why William was not overly concerned with his brother's absence from his chambers. Then, of course, there is friday 9 Nov.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

Back to timelines again. So what would be a suggested timeline of events/dates for you? I don’t have any fixed opinion on this so it’s good to consider all possibilities (even knowing that it’s ultimately not solvable of course) One thing that I’ve always had at the back of my mind (with no proof of course) is that William might have expected or maybe half-expected his brother to commit suicide. And following on from that I have wondered if Monty might have confessed (maybe to the murders or maybe just to something that would have been shameful to the family?)

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Back to timelines again. So what would be a suggested timeline of events/dates for you? I don’t have any fixed opinion on this so it’s good to consider all possibilities (even knowing that it’s ultimately not solvable of course) One thing that I’ve always had at the back of my mind (with no proof of course) is that William might have expected or maybe half-expected his brother to commit suicide. And following on from that I have wondered if Monty might have confessed (maybe to the murders or maybe just to something that would have been shameful to the family?)

Hi Herlock,

I think that there are far too many ifs, buts, maybes and unknowns to consider a timeline, but were I to do so I would be inclined to accept the written testimony and not include an uncorroborated sacking on friday 30 Nov.

One of the questions in my mind is, what was the attraction for Monty in Hammersmith that prompted him to buy a return ticket to that location, and to take a considerable amount of cash with him? William was in Bournemouth, which afaik was not even on the same rail line as Hammersmith. The ancestral home was at Wimborne, not far from Bournemouth, and Monty's mother was incarcerated at Brooke Asylum, to the north of London. What is the likelihood of someone who is contemplating suicide availing himself of so much cash, and buying a return ticket for the event, when there were perfectly good bridges in London from which to leap into the Thames. A botched blackmail attempt seems unlikely as surely said blackmailer would have relieved Monty of his cash before consigning his body to the Thames. One of the many imponderables.

While Monty's job at Valentine's school was prestigious, it was lowly paid. His legal practice was in the ascendancy and his membership of the M.C.C. would have been placing pressure on his time and perhaps, given the family history of anxiety, his mental acuity. From 1st October to 22nd November Monty was working on an appeal case sent to him by William, so that may have been the purpose of their meeting in late October. Could William have observed some stress in Monty at that time, and mentioned it to McNaughton, to then become the private information? It was reported that William exhibited covert and dismissive behaviour during the investigation of Monty's disappearance. Putting aside (without necessarily discarding) more sinister motives, was the note an attempt by William to allude to Monty's mental illness to secure the latter's estate for the family rather than it being ceded to the State? There are things about William's behaviour that just don't sit right with me. YMMV.

Cheers, George

[erobitha]

Being gay (which I think he was) and his subsequent suicide would have been highly embarrassing for his family at the time. I would not even doubt some members of his own family may have deliberately put his name up after his death to throw people off the truth of his real sexuality—all speculation, of course.

Hello Erobitha,

What are you basing that on?

c.d.

It’s my own opinion as I stated. There are a number of circumstances which I believe points to that possibly being the case. I have no proof except my own belief that he was gay.

[Darryl Kenyon]

When I look at the circumstances surrounding Druitt and his dismissal , I wonder if the Littlechild letter holds a clue . Littlechild says - I am just going to inflict one more letter on you on the 'Ripper' subject. Does that mean he was in regular contact with Sims ?
He then mentions - I never heard of a Dr D. in connection with the Whitechapel murders. Is he alluding to, he now knows about Druitt , [through Sims ], and the reasons he was suspected by MM.

Coupled with this he writes about the case of Harry Thaw and the boy who stole a sovereign and how Thaw, Sado masochistically abused him with a cane etc He also says Tumblety was not known to be a sadist . So it is highly unlikely Littlechild is comparing Thaw's case to him.

Was he referencing the Thaw incident to compare it to Druitt ? Was Druitt habitually cruel to the boys at the school in some Sado sexual masochistic way [ like the aforementioned Thaw's use of the cane ], ? And it only came to light at the end of term when the boys parents made complaints ?

Not forgetting MM described Druitt as being sexually insane. Why would he say that ?

Just some musings Darryl

[Herlock Sholmes]

When I look at the circumstances surrounding Druitt and his dismissal , I wonder if the Littlechild letter holds a clue . Littlechild says - I am just going to inflict one more letter on you on the 'Ripper' subject. Does that mean he was in regular contact with Sims ?
He then mentions - I never heard of a Dr D. in connection with the Whitechapel murders. Is he alluding to, he now knows about Druitt , [through Sims ], and the reasons he was suspected by MM.

Coupled with this he writes about the case of Harry Thaw and the boy who stole a sovereign and how Thaw, Sado masochistically abused him with a cane etc He also says Tumblety was not known to be a sadist . So it is highly unlikely Littlechild is comparing Thaw's case to him.

Was he referencing the Thaw incident to compare it to Druitt ? Was Druitt habitually cruel to the boys at the school in some Sado sexual masochistic way [ like the aforementioned Thaw's use of the cane ], ? And it only came to light at the end of term when the boys parents made complaints ?

Not forgetting MM described Druitt as being sexually insane. Why would he say that ?

Just some musings Darryl

It’s always good to have your thoughts Darryl and this is an interesting point. Littlechild points out how often (in his opinion) it is that those of ‘contrary sexual instinct’ or ‘degenerates’ (homosexuals/paedophiles/sex addicts?) are also sadists (as he suggests that the ripper was) If Druitt had gone over the top in punishing one or more of the students he could have been making a comparison. Like so much though Darryl we just don’t know quite enough. It’s also interesting that he said that Tumblety was believed to have committed suicide.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Hi George,

I think that there are far too many ifs, buts, maybes and unknowns to consider a timeline, but were I to do so I would be inclined to accept the written testimony and not include an uncorroborated sacking on friday 30 Nov.

Fair enough. It’s annoying that we have no way of tying this down but then again that’s hardly unusual in this case.

One of the questions in my mind is, what was the attraction for Monty in Hammersmith that prompted him to buy a return ticket to that location, and to take a considerable amount of cash with him? William was in Bournemouth, which afaik was not even on the same rail line as Hammersmith. The ancestral home was at Wimborne, not far from Bournemouth, and Monty's mother was incarcerated at Brooke Asylum, to the north of London. What is the likelihood of someone who is contemplating suicide availing himself of so much cash, and buying a return ticket for the event, when there were perfectly good bridges in London from which to leap into the Thames. A botched blackmail attempt seems unlikely as surely said blackmailer would have relieved Monty of his cash before consigning his body to the Thames. One of the many imponderables.

Unless he went to hand over the cash but changed his mind and committed suicide? Mmm, no I’m not keen on the suggestion either. Maybe he’d just collected any money owing to him and then gone to visit his mother to say goodbye before he killed himself?

While Monty's job at Valentine's school was prestigious, it was lowly paid. His legal practice was in the ascendancy and his membership of the M.C.C. would have been placing pressure on his time and perhaps, given the family history of anxiety, his mental acuity. From 1st October to 22nd November Monty was working on an appeal case sent to him by William, so that may have been the purpose of their meeting in late October. Could William have observed some stress in Monty at that time, and mentioned it to McNaughton, to then become the private information?

I certainly think it’s possible that William could have been the source of the ‘private info’ but for him to have mentioned it to a stranger and high ranking police officer like Macnaghten then I think there would have had to have been more to it than just exhibiting stress or erratic behaviour. Maybe some form of suspicious behaviour?

It was reported that William exhibited covert and dismissive behaviour during the investigation of Monty's disappearance. Putting aside (without necessarily discarding) more sinister motives, was the note an attempt by William to allude to Monty's mental illness to secure the latter's estate for the family rather than it being ceded to the State? There are things about William's behaviour that just don't sit right with me. YMMV.

Cheers, George

I had to look up YMMV. You’re obviously more ‘new language’ savvy than I am George. I’ve always had a feeling that William might have known more than he was letting on too but of course that doesn’t mean that it had to have been anything sinister although it’s not impossible that Monty had said something that William only later potentially connected to the murders. Monty might have simply confessed of course. Maybe he’d told William that he intended to settle his affairs and commit suicide?

Surely Monty’s suicide note wasn’t just one sentence? I wonder what the rest said?

[Lewis C]

I do not think it as likely, since the paper had “30th”, so yes, a 30 for 3 could have been mistake, but not th for rd as well.

That's a good point.

[GBinOz]

Maybe he’d just collected any money owing to him and then gone to visit his mother to say goodbye before he killed himself?

Hi Herlock,

That would be a good explanation, except that his mother wasn't transferred to the Manor House Asylum until mid 1890. I thought she was in the Brooke House Asylum in Clapham, but have since discovered that she was transferred from there to the care of Dr. Joseph Raymond Gasquet at St George's Retreat, Burgess Hill, a private licensed house near Brighton in September 1888.

Cheers, George