Druitt - A Link to the East End: The People's Palace

[Ben]

Hi Natalie,

You're seemingly very eager for Jack the Ripper to have been from a higher class, and that agenda creeps into far too many of my posts, from my humble observations.

You must recognise that I was in fact making points about several of your anachronisms and shibboleths re the middle and upper classes, Victorian serial killers and their class background

I've been responsible for no anachronisms. Show me one I've made. And my suggestion that Jack the Ripper was probably not an upper-class "Throw another peasant on the fire!" type of Hollywood lore certainly doesn't count as one.

The fact remains that Sir Melville Macnaghten ,assistant commissioner of police 1889, had Druitt down as the Ripper and Druitt was neither working class or local so you cannot simply dismiss Druitt on the basis of class andon him not being local ,or wish him away,because you have first to deal with why Macnaghten thought he was the ripper.

A) Macnaghten didn't know anything about serial killers, unlike modern commentators who have a decade of experience from which to inform their judgement.

B) Macnagthen wasn't even a professional policeman, having never risen through the ranks and only receiving a high ranking direct from the tea plantations in India.

C) Nobody else seemed to have agreed with Macnaghten, especially not those at the helm of the case in 1888.

Then you venture off on some wild irrelevent tangent about poisoners Cream and Chapman. Firstly, Chapman was locally-based (just as Cream was in Lambeth) and certainly not from an upper-middle class background, and secondly, the reliable eyewitnes and physical evidence (poisoning) pointed specifically away from, say, a local laboruing type and in the direction of someone with medical knowledge. Not so in the case of Jack the Ripper, and nearly all the other non-poisoning serial killers who make up the majority. Poisoning serials tend to be perpetrated by doctors and those with medical knowledge; white collar professions, and just as poisoning serials are in the minority, so too are upper-middle class serial killers. Not so in the case of Jack the Ripper, and nearly all the other non-poisoning.

I'm afraid it's purely an assumption that JTR specifically targetted a victim "type", rather than taking easy advantage of what was most readily available within his own geoegraphical, ecomonical and cultural orbit as far more serial killers do.

You tend to make assumptions on the basis of inappropriate comparison with 21st century statistics about "serial killers",how they operate and where

If it's "inappropriate" to make comparisons with more modern serial killers, it's even more so to make comparisons with serial poisoners.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Nats,

Sugden"s assertion,as I recall in his chapter on Chapman,is that this surgeon he trained under was a highly trained man.

He may have been (although what "highly trained" means in the context of a mid 19th-century Polish village surgeon is another matter), and possibly he was one of the senior practitioners in Zwolen village, but that's not the same as saying that he was "one of the senior surgeons in Poland". Indeed, a Zwolen medical practitioner who also gave Kłosowski a reference in 1885 (a Dr Oltetski - he who gave us the "leeching and cupping" info), states that Moshko Rappaport was a "local" surgeon. We're not talking Joseph Lister, Christiaan Barnard or Magdi Yacoub here.

Also that his family contributed to his training.

There is no record of that among Kłosowski's papers, so one can only assume that "my parents apprenticed me to Moshko Rappaport to study surgery" became extended by speculation to "Rappaport charged tuition fees, and my parents paid them " - none of which can be substantiated by the surviving documentation.

[Ben]

and that agenda creeps into far too many of my posts

Your posts, I meant, Nats. Although by responding to it, I guess it creeps into mine too.

[aspallek]

C) Nobody else seemed to have agreed with Macnaghten, especially not those at the helm of the case in 1888.

On the contrary, dozens picked up on Macnaghten's drowned doctor and ran with him even if they didn't know his name. Only now we know that the drowned doctor did not originate with Sir Melville, but rather was reflective of Farquharson's "son of a surgeon."

Macnaghten wasn't a "professional policeman" in the sense that he hadn't had years of investigative experience. He was, however, a capable administrator with access to the very investigators who worked on the active investigation and also possessed "private information" presumably unknown to those "professional policemen." For what it's worth, Macnaghten seemed to have a sort of natural "knack" for police work. He was far from a bumbling fool even though he did obviously made some errors. Or were they errors?

[Ben]

On the contrary, dozens picked up on Macnaghten's drowned doctor and ran with him even if they didn't know his name

Dozens of what, though, Andy?

Not dozens of senior policemen, surely?

We know Macnaghten had an interest and a passion in detective work, but whether that equates to a "knack" for the job is more a matter of interpretation. You're quite right to observe that he had access to the investigators who were in charge of the case at the time of the murders, which makes it all the more conspicuous that those same contemporary investigators clearly didn't share his prime suspect theory. If the private information was of a particularly incriminating nature, I can't see him failing to share it with Anderson, Swanson, Abberline et al.

Best regards,
Ben

[aspallek]

If the private information was of a particularly incriminating nature, I can't see him failing to share it with Anderson, Swanson, Abberline et al.

But the private information was not of an incriminating nature, not legally speaking. Macnaghten is very clear that there was not sufficient evidence to convict anybody. Since there was no possibility of conviction, I beg to differ with you. I do not believe Macnaghten would have shared that information with anyone.

Ben, we now know that Druitt was not really Macnaghten's suspect. Druitt as a suspect existed already in the mind of Henry Richard Farquharson. Farquharson lived ten miles form Druitt and was exactly the same age. Their families travelled in the same circles and they certainly would have known one another and probably rather well.

[Natalie Severn]

Gareth,
I dont think it matters two hoots whether George Chapman trained for five years under a senior Polish surgeon or just a Polish surgeon ,Sugden is the source and Sugden it is who discusses Chapman"s background and at no point does he suggest Chapman was an impoverished Polish immigrant -which you have said was the case on several occasions in the past.On the contrary,Sugden is most careful when describing his background and the family come across as better off than many.


Ben,
Macnaghten was Chief Constable of CID,Scotland Yard.Because he had such a senior position in the police,his views,whether you like them or not,are of prime importance in the case.But this is not to say his views about the ripper were correct,simply that any serious student of the case will take what he said seriously and argue about it on a serious level.
You keep making sweeping statements about serial murderers.How do you know what "moved" the Ripper? How do you know that the "serial" murderer"- of prostitutes in 1890, Dr Cream,differed in any way from the Ripper with regard to his motivation-ie what caused him to kill?
Are you actually saying all these murderers belong in their own particular "little boxes" or "compartments" and you know which box to put each killer in?Where do you place serial killer and ex-policeman,Christie? Is he the "gas man" or the "strangler" or what? Where do you place Neville Heath whose vicious attacks on several young women,consecutively, [along the lines of Emma Smith] caused them to die in agony?This by the way was an ex public school boy ,a fighter pilot in WW2 so yet again a non working class serial killer.
And it is not true that I am insisting the Ripper was a" toff'. I have though noted that Abberline was reputed to have thought so-----"a scion of a noble family"he is supposed to have said- and Macnaghten thought Druitt the likliest to have been the Ripper.
What I am arguing against actually, is YOUR INSISTENCE that HE WAS NOT.
He could have been working class---ofcourse he could,he could have been Kosminski but where is the proof?-------or he could have been from the middle or upper classes.He could have been from any class -no particular class has a monopoly on murder or serial murder.
In fact,since the Upper Classes in Victorian Times comprised less than 1% of the total population, and the middle classes something like 4% of the total population ,thinking of Dr Cream, George Chapman and co,its looking as though the ratio in Victorian times favoured the middle classes [for numbers of caught and convicted serial murderers coming from that class in Victorian times -pro rata the general population].

[Sam Flynn]

Dear Nats,

I dont think it matters two hoots whether George Chapman trained for five years under a senior Polish surgeon or just a Polish surgeon

You should, if only to clarify what Sugden actually says. Specifically:

"In 1880 his parents apprenticed him to Moshko Rappaport, senior surgeon in Zwolen" (Sugden, p. 441, 2002 paperback edition)

What Sugden omits to say (and I'm 100% sure not deliberately) is that we don't know whether Rappaport was "a" senior surgeon (i.e. the head honcho in his own little practice) or "the" senior surgeon in that village. I suspect, on balance, that Rappaport was one of a couple of "senior" surgeons who had practices in Zwolen at the time, but it's certain that nowhere can it be derived that Rappaport was one of the "senior surgeons in Poland". Secondly, Sugden gives us no clue as to the size of the village (in fact, he doesn't mention that Zwolen was a village at all), which may be a minor point, but it was certainly no sprawling metropolis. From my own research (posted last year, pre-crash) I ascertained that Zwolen's population probably amounted to fewer than 6,000 residents in the last quarter of the 19th Century.

None of this should cast aspersions on Sugden, for whom I have the utmost respect - on the contrary, it should clarify matters with regard to his (not) giving the impression that Kłosowski studied under some surgical "whizz-kid", which is simply not the case. The belief that Kłosowski's teenage apprenticeship and subsequent training (amounting to a few months) was of "med school" calibre is a myth that needs to be dispelled.

The good news is that, thanks to the digitisation of the Old Bailey and Times newspaper records, we can read the original evidence for ourselves - and it is on these sources (for precious little else survives) that HL Adam, and later Philip Sugden, largely drew. I'd recommend that you read them for yourself, because apart from anything else they make for fascinating reading.

Enough, already, from me on this thread - lest the Revd Spallek get justly peeved with me.

[Ben]

Because he had such a senior position in the police,his views,whether you like them or not,are of prime importance in the case.But this is not to say his views about the ripper were correct

Great. I haven't negated any of that, Norma. Nor have I made "sweeping statements" about serial killers. I may have stated a few facts from time to time, for example that most serial killers that we know about derive from working class backgrounds and largely blue-collar occupations (mentioning a few examples of a few that didn't doesn't invalidate the fact that most of them do), or that most closely-clustered and circumscribed serials tend to be perpertrated by local agents (and since the vast majority of those local agents in this case came from working class backgrounds and blue collar professions...).

Neville Heath killed two women (not "several"); one in Notting Hill and the other in Bournemouth. Not fabulously comparable really, least of all geographically and economically. Ditto poisoner Cream.

I have though noted that Abberline was reputed to have thought so-----"a scion of a noble family"he is supposed to have said.

But that's obvious laughable fiction, isn't it?

and Macnaghten thought Druitt the likliest to have been the Ripper.

In contrast to all other senior police officials who didn't.

He could have been from any class -no particular class has a monopoly on murder or serial murder.

And that's where you're factually in error.

But regardless, however fantactically unlikely most discerning students of the case consider the possibility of an upper-class Jack to have been, I've never stated that's it's impossible because I lack final proof. Overwhelming probability points very strongly in the direction of a working class local or locally based serial offender. Crime scene evidence, eyewitness evidence, historical precedent, and expert insight into the topic indicate as much.

[Ben]

I do not believe Macnaghten would have shared that information with anyone

I just can't quite picture it, Andy.

Considering the furore these crimes had created, and the collective frustration and opprobrium that had resulted from them, I just can't envisage Macnaghten withholding information about it. At the very least, it would have insenstive to the likes of Swanson and Abberline.

All the best,
Ben

[aspallek]

In contrast to all other senior police officials who didn't.

Now, Ben, I'm afraid this is an inaccurate statement. Do we have record of any other senior police official who put forward a suspect while still in office? Only Macnaghten. The others, like Anderson for example, were reflecting many years later. That speaks volumes. Look, for example, at how Macnaghten himself modified his views in between 1894 and 1914, when his memoirs were published. Who knows what Anderson thought while he was in office?

Frankly, we simply do not have the views of many "senior police officials." Warren left none. Smith rambled a lot but named no suspect. Swanson identified Anderson's suspect but may or may not have agreed with his old boss. Abberline was not a "senior official" and only speculated years after leaving the force. Littlechild I suppose might qualify but he was Special Branch and again his only speculation of which we are aware dates from 25 years later! Ben, you portray this as Macnaghten vs. the whole of SY and City Police forces. Not so. Macnaghten's written opinion while in service and having access to all the information deserves far more weight. As Norma reminds us, that doesn't mean he was right but it deserve far more weight.

Furthermore, you seem to disregard the point that I have repeatedly made that Druitt as a suspect did not originate with Macnaghten in 1894. Farquharson, almost certainly a Druitt acquaintance, was already talking about him as the suspect in early 1891.

I just can't quite picture it, Andy.

Considering the furore these crimes had created, and the collective frustration and opprobrium that had resulted from them, I just can't envisage Macnaghten withholding information about it. At the very least, it would have insenstive to the likes of Swanson and Abberline.

I suppose we will never know for certain -- unless some document surfaces indicating he did -- and it is fair to disagree on this. I only know that Macnaghten was regarded as a man of great integrity. As such, in accordance with the prevailing ethics of his era, I find it difficult to envision him sharing confidential information when no conviction would result.

Speculation warning: This would be particularly true if the "private information" came from a clergyman under the seal of the confessional or at least of "spiritual counseling." Remember John Henry Lonsdale? In 1888 he was the Druitt family pastor (or one of them, at any rate, as assistant curate) at Wimborne Minster. He was also a classmate of Sir Melville's at Eton. Their wives' families' both lived at Chichester (though I don't know whether at the same time). [Here comes the speculation --->] What if the Druitt family confided their fears about Montague to Lonsdale, who in turn informed Macnaghten in the strictest confidence? That would most definitely be private information.

[Ben]

Now, Ben, I'm afraid this is an inaccurate statement. Do we have record of any other senior police official who put forward a suspect while still in office? Only Macnaghten. The others, like Anderson for example, were reflecting many years later.

It's not as inaccurate statement, Andy.

As far as we know, Macnaghten was the only police official of any seniority who favoured Druitt as the prime suspect. We know that the senior officials who were actually working the case at the time (i.e. not Macnaghten) were not sold on the theory, with Abberline explicitly stating that it amounted to no more than Druitt committing suicide at the "right" time. Personally, I don't find the suggestion that Macnagthen withheld information (info which could potentially sway the others to favour Druitt) from the likes of Anderson and Swanson to be very credible. More likely, it was shared and ajudjed to carry little weight as evidence.

Abberline was a senior official to the extent that he had overall charge of the investigation "on the ground".

It doesn't really matter how long after the event they were writing. If the Kosminski identification occured in 1891, for example, it would appear than Anderson subscribed to his theory just as early (if not earlier) as Macnaghten subscribed to his. It seems likely that Swanson agreed with his boss, or else he'd hardly have highlighted the detail that "no similar murder was committed again in London" (paraphrasing) after Kosminski's incarceration.

Farquharson, almost certainly a Druitt acquaintance, was already talking about him as the suspect in early 1891.

I know, and an interesting find on your part. Unfortunately, we know very little about Farquarson as a source, and the nature of his suspicions may or may not hint at something especially incriminating.

Best regards,
Ben

[aspallek]

Hello Ben,

Abberline was not in charge of the overall investigation nor was he a "senior police official." You are correct, however, in saying that he rejected a derivation of Macnaghten's theory but, again, this was long after he had left the force.

It does indeed make a great difference how many years later opinions were written down. This can clearly be seen from the way Macnaghten himself modified his views between 1894 and 1914. This was partly due to the passage of time and partly due to the fact that in his memoirs were public while his memorandum was not.

It is accurate to say that no senior police official left a record of agreeing with Macnaghten's theory about Druitt. However, many such senior officials left no record at all regarding their opinions on the case. We don't know, for example, whether Warren agreed or not with Macnaghten's opinion. Your argument is in large part (with the exception of a very few individuals such as Anderson) an argument from silence.

Your caution regarding Farquharson is well noted. However, this particular discussion is not about whether Druitt is guilty. It is about Macnaghten's credibility in suspecting him. If Druitt was already a suspect in the eyes of a member of Parliament from his district who knew him, Macnaghten can scarcely be criticized for suspecting him.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Folks,
To me,particularly having read his bizarre religious tracts, Anderson, quite honestly, comes across later on in his life as a pretty deluded soul, given to "hearing voices" from "the other place"etc. Macnaghten ,though,appears to be a pretty normal,down to earth,urbane type of man .I find the writings of Macnaghten"s friend,the journalist Sims,to be thoughtful and compassionate too -in a Victorian sort of way, and I can picture the two deep in discussion about the ripper.I also find James Monro,[an even, more senior policeman] , to have finally shown himself to be a man of integrity,who did not wish to "continue to do wrong"---and therefore he left his job/security and every comfort in life , because his conscience would not allow him to stay any longer in a job that compromised him.In other respects,like Macnaghten , he too seems to have had both feet on the ground.We dont really know what he thought of Druitt as a suspect-and he must have read the Macnaghten memorandum.The only way he spoke of the Ripper- that we hear about anyway,is that the case was a "hot potato".Maybe he knew something but he didnt say so.

There were ,as Andy says,a large number who said they did not know----and this was years later.I happen to rate Major Smith actually.He spoke quite magnificently about Anderson"s wrong headed nonsense about the Jews and his Jewish suspect----I suspect the Major doesnt suit some of those who have taken Anderson at his word!

[Natalie Severn]

Gareth,
Well maybe Philip Sugden was wrong.I am very surprised I must admit,if this is the case,


Ben,
Cream was a serial killer of some five prostitutes,He was hung for murder in 1892.
Regarding Neville Heath.In England he may only have killed two women ----in succession----[as if that isnt enough for crying out loud]
In Egypt ,during the war,ie a couple of years before his trial,he is believed to have killed several young females and males .This was in a house of ill repute he used to visit, specialising in S&M.There had been an uproar ,during the times of his visits,about mysterious attacks that gone well beyond the usual,-well out of hand, causing a number of deaths.He was originally a suspect but it couldnt be proven,[they said].When he was arrested the cases were considered solved.He too was hung for murder in 1946 or 1948.