Druitt - A Link to the East End: The People's Palace

[Sam Flynn]

H***ch****n BTW wasnt remotely suspected,even though a huge house to house search of the area by the police,had eliminated all those in "shared accomodation"

Eliminated ALL, Nats? Kudos to them if they managed that, but I don't think that they could ever have been close to doing so.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Andy,

Jack the Ripper is irrefutably a "serial killer" by definition. Some have killed more, some have killed less, and some have killed about the same number. Nothing hugely unique here - just an interesting name attached to an interesting case, courtesy of its unsolved nature. It still wouldn't invalidate the observation that most serial killers whose crimes are closely clustered tend to be locally resident; an observation that isn't remotelyt weakened on the basis that the cimes were committed in the Victorian era. Why would it? In fact, how would the Victorian nature of the crimes impact negatively on our ability to draw parallels with other serials?

Best regards,
Ben

It is without any question that among the most gory murders that have ever made the press are those committed by people suffering from the untreated , mental illness of "paranoid schizophrenia".[Quite true though that most paranoid schizophrenics do NOT commit murder but those that do........!!!].Here diminished responsibility because of episodic psychosis is the most common diagnosis.Druitt"s mother who he believed he was "going like" suffered from this illness by all accounts.
If Druitt had begun to suffer from such "episodes of madness" it would
account for
1]the murders
2] his dismissal from Eliots Place
3] his subsequent suicide

He could also have been appearing "fairly" normal from the onset of his illness,the episodes of madness generating the killings.
Best
Nats

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=Sam Flynn;18032]Eliminated ALL, Nats? Kudos to them if they managed that, but I don't think that they could ever have been close to doing so.[/Q


reply:
Swanson"s report is available on this and its worth reading Sam, if you havent already done so.It proves the police checks were very much more thorough than has been thought and they included every house in the area which included the Victoria Home----where ofcourse,there would have been absolutely nowhere for him to have got rid of bloodstains in privacy.Every man"s clothing was thoroughly checked for bloodstains,as were their belongings.The same happened with every man from the Berner Street club who had been there that night.What the police did do was actually very thorough and time consuming.

[aspallek]

Time to tidy up a few things.

First, I meant to say this earlier and forgot. I did not mean to suggest that Jabez Druitt lived within an impoverished area of the East End. No. He was quite well off and employed servants as well as many craftsmen. He lived where he lived primarily because of its proximity to large cemeteries (see purple areas on map below), as he was a "monumental mason." However, let us not get too carried away here. Poverty and blight was in the area. That is why the People's Palace was put there, after all. However, the real significance is that Montague would have to travel through the heart of Whitechapel to get from his chambers or from Cannon Street Station to either Jabez's home or the People's Palace.

This 1898-99 Booth map shows the location of Jabez Druitt's 1881 home at 447 Mile End Road. You see that it is middle class, well to do (shades of reddish brown). However, you also see impoverished areas nearby (shades of blue).



This section from the same 1898-99 map shows the relative position of the People's Palace (blue rectangle) and Jabez's home (green). It also shows impoverished areas which I have outlined in yellow, including a large such area just off the map to the north. Cemeteries (Jabez's reason for locating there) are outlined in purple. There were probably other cemeteries nearby as well.



Now, for comparison, here is a section of the map (1898-99) centered on 29 Hanbury Street. Remember, shades of red-brown are more middle class, well to do, while shades of blue are more impoverished.



All this shows that there is some truth is what each of us has been saying but also that we are generally only each giving a part of the whole picture.

[Septic Blue]

He lived where he lived primarily because of its proximity to large cemeteries ...

City of London & Tower Hamlets Cemetery
Mile End Old Town / Bromley St. Leonard
from northeast, October 2007


City of London & Tower Hamlets Cemetery
Mile End Old Town / Bromley St. Leonard
from north, October 2007


City of London & Tower Hamlets Cemetery
Mile End Old Town / Bromley St. Leonard
from north, October 2007


Colin

[Sam Flynn]

Swanson"s report is available on this and its worth reading Sam, if you havent already done so.It proves the police checks were very much more thorough than has been thought and they included every house in the area which included the Victoria Home.

I have read Swanson's report, Nats - and I agree that it largely gives the lie to those who suggest that the police didn't do much. However, the full extent of the search is not specified down to the last address, so we don't know that the Victoria Home was in fact covered. It quite possibly was, but we don't know for certain.

Even if that had been the case, and the report contained an inventory of every single registered doss-house, unregistered doss-house, rented room or shared dwelling in the area, the logistics of interviewing multiple thousands of men and checking out their individual stories were simply impracticable. That they managed to interview 2,000 residents was a remarkable achievement in itself.

[aspallek]

Well, some of those may have been his work, Colin....

[Ben]

Hutchinson BTW wasnt even remotely suspected,by anyone at any time during or after ,even though a huge house to house search of the area by the police,had eliminated all those in "shared accomodation" such as the Victoria Home

Absolutely mind-numbing nonsense. I can scarcely believe what I'm reading. No offence, Nats, you make a lot of good points, but that one extracted the piddle. The very notion that "all" lodgers in "all" lodgings house were investigated and eliminated is utterly impossible, and Donald Swanson never claimed as much - not for one moment. Debate over on that one. What bloodstains were the police hoping to trace? The few splashes that were probably cleaned off in the doss house kitchen as soon as the killer arrived home?

We don't know whether Hutchinson was suspected or not. If he wasn't, it wouldn't be remotely surprising or unlikely given the absence of any precedent for offenders coming forward as witnesses. If he was, there was nothing concrete with which to snare him anyway, just as there was nothing concrete with which to snare Gary Ridgway was he was initially roped in.

As for Druitt, there is absolutely no evidence that his mother's mental illness manifested itself in "paranoid schizophrenia", and even less evidence that Druitt inherited such an illness from his mother.

All the best,
Ben

[Ben]

Gary Ridgway was he was initially roped in.

When he was initially roped in...

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
You will do and say anything to promote your preferred suspect Hutchinson,the one man who was never suspected by police at any time----.
The point of Swanson"s report is that it explains in some detail the house -to- house enquiries completed on 18th October and the reason the police began to suspect he might be a Polish Jew viz that the police believed this community were reluctant to hand over one of their own to gentile justice----this,put another way,means the police were convinced he was being shielded by someone who must have seen his "bloodstains" and allowed him to get rid of them in private .
The Victoria Home, where Hutchinson lived,would have undoubtedly been one of the two thousand dwellings thoroughly searched by police since it was in the precise area-just a hundred yards from the Goulston Street doorway where Catherin Eddowes apron was found .Moreover it was run by ex met police officers and those who lodged there were considered to have a good character----as opposed to those who lived in the common lodging houses of the disctrict.
A lot of nonsense is indeed sometimes written about these murders,most often by yourself and those who believe the murderer of Catherine Eddowes would not have had any bloodstains on his clothes or person,let alone the murderer of Mary Kelly.To most it must be obvious he would have had to get rid of bloodstains -and where in the negligible wash room facilities of Whitechapel ,at 2am,would he have managed to do that?
Where indeed in the entirety of the Victoria Home, which would have had communal facilities with people there watching out closely for a miscreant sporting bloodstains on his cuffs or shirt?
No its pretty obvious Hutchinson must have had fairly sound credentials,vouched for by those who knew him----which may even have included the police themselves......how else do we account for his never coming under suspicion during the entire time.evenh when they knew he was one of the last to see Mary Kelly?And when the whole of Whitechapel was on the look out and snitching on each other----that is when they were not themselves being hauled in for police questioning.
Anyway,this is not a Hutchinson thread so I will leave it at that.
Natalie

[Johnr]

Natalie,
In Sydney in Australia where I live, up until a very few years ago, the Salvation Army ran a very cheap accommodation establishment called .. "The People's Palace". It was for those needing a bed on a permanent or temporary basis. Sometimes respectable visitors from the country could book in at very reasonable tariff, and know they would be safe. JOHN RUFFELS.

[Ben]

Oh for crying out loud...

I never mentioned the H word, but if people want to play awhile.

You will do and say anything to promote your preferred suspect Hutchinson,the one man who was never suspected by police at any time

I say again: We don't know whether Hutchinson was suspected or not. If he wasn't, it wouldn't be remotely surprising or unlikely given the absence of any precedent for offenders coming forward as witnesses. If he was, there was nothing concrete with which to snare him anyway, just as there was nothing concrete with which to snare Gary Ridgway when he was initially roped in. He was simply dismissed for lack of evidence. There isn't always some magic formula for instantly determining whether or not a suspect is guilty or innocent. Even if I did have a particular desire for Hutchinson to the the killer (for what possible reason?) it would be a "win win" situation when contemplating whether or not any suspicion was attached to him. It was you who specifically mentioned Hutchinson. My comments related simply to the nature of lodging houses and their inhabitants.

this,put another way,means the police were convinced he was being shielded by someone who must have seen his "bloodstains" and allowed him to get rid of them in private .

"Put another way"? Nats, if that's the inference your drawing from Anderson's preference for a Polish Jew, I'm rather concerned. If you examine the details of the theory, you'll discover that it refers to a specific person; almost certainly Kosminski, since he was living with family in private accomodation. That does not - for one mad, mad, moment - permit the inference that all gentile inhabitants of lodging houses had been investigated and ruled out. That's impossible. That's lunacy.

The Victoria Home, where Hutchinson lived,would have undoubtedly been one of the two thousand dwellings thoroughly searched by police since it was in the precise area-just a hundred yards from the Goulston Street doorway where Catherin Eddowes apron was found .

Probably. And...?

The murderer would not have been bloodstained. Such was the majority-endorsed view of contemporary medical professionals. A murderer can role his sleeves up, he can tilt a body away from himself so as to deflect the flow of blood away from him (as JTR certainly did), he can avoid sitting pretty in a lodging house when the coppers come a' questionin. At the Kelly murder, he had the option of removing as many outer garments as he wished. Far from being insurmountable problems, they're not problems at all. To argue that common lodging houses weren't suitable bolt-holes is indicative of a woeful lack of understanding as to their nature and history. They were popular with the criminally cooerced precisely because they enabled the miscreants to become proverbial needles in the haystack.

Moreover it was run by ex met police officers and those who lodged there were considered to have a good character----as opposed to those who lived in the common lodging houses of the disctrict.

Ah, splendid. So I guess they'd let Denis Rader, Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgway and Harold Shipman straight in if they were around in 1888. They were all of superficially good character too.

No its pretty obvious Hutchinson must have had fairly sound credentials,vouched for by those who knew him

Ah, splendid. So if you want to find out whether or not someone lied or killed anyone, it's simple - just ask his mates! And if his mates say "Nah Nah, he's a diamond geezuh", that's accepted immediately and the suspect becomes a paragon of virtue.

how else do we account for his never coming under suspicion during the entire time.evenh when they knew he was one of the last to see Mary Kelly?

Great, I get to say it again.

We don't know whether Hutchinson was suspected or not. If he wasn't, it wouldn't be remotely surprising or unlikely given the absence of any precedent for offenders coming forward as witnesses. If he was, there was nothing concrete with which to snare him anyway, just as there was nothing concrete with which to snare Gary Ridgway when he was initially roped in.

Back to Druitt.

[Natalie Severn]

Well I dont agree with you over any of this Ben so......
Lets get back to Druitt.It may be that the reason Druitt became the "Prime Suspect" of the Chief of Police,Macnaghten was precisely because he actually HAD come under suspicion by the police in the East End around the times of the murders .This is supported by Andy"s findings on the MP Farquharson"s comment,reported in the West Country Press,that "blood stained clothing" had been found in the room of a surgeon"s son .Moreover it is backed up by the police answer given to Albert Bachert ,who in March 1889 asked them why they had cut back on the extra police recruited to track down the ripperThis was only 5 months after the Kelly murder and their answer was that they believed they had found the Ripper dead - drowned in the Thames.To me this suggests that police had already started to withdraw their men because of this belief, which logically leads one to think they had reason to believe that Druitt was the Ripper.
So suppose Druitt had been recommended by the one of these Acland"s who he was friendly with,to be a consultant on Teacher Pupil practise,which he was experienced in.We know he had been closely involved with Reginald Brodie Dyke Acland,who had himself ,like Druitt [donation of £1]had donated the sizeable sum of £3 [in today"s money ie approx £200 ].This Dyke- Acland played cricket and fives with Druitt at Oxford,so its fair to assume they were pally.Since Arthur H Dyke- Acland,was dedicating endless of his time and energy to similar work at the Toynbee Hall,it is quite likely Druitt was lent upon by Reginald to give at least some kind of specialist knowledge or "consultative" support to the big pupil / teacher programme being put into operation by those involved in the People"s Palace and Toynbee Hall in the mid eighties-and 1887/8.


The Acland"s may well be the missing link.
Wasnt it Mrs Dyke Acland who fed information to Dr Thomas Stowell , who claimed to know the identity of Jack the Ripper-he was the scion of a noble family----a noble "family of surgeons" like Stowell and Caroline Gull-Dyke Acland came from?
Intersting
Natalie

[aspallek]

It is a bit ironic that authors have been trying to establish a link between the Ripper and the Cambridge Apostles when the link may have been rather to the Oxford supporters of Toynbee Hall and the People's Palace. Wrong university but similar idea of intellectual elites.

[Ben]

Hi Nats,

This is supported by Andy"s findings on the MP Farquharson"s comment,reported in the West Country Press,that "blood stained clothing" had been found in the room of a surgeon"s son

Are you referring to the Bristol Times and Mirror article? In so, the informant stated that "a man with blood-stained clothes committed suicide on the night of the last murder" which is obviously wrong. Druitt didn't commit suicide on the night of the last murder, and if the source was wrong about that, he could easily have been wrong about the bloodstained clothing. Nothing about the clothes being found in his "room", though, unless you're alluding to a different article.

As for Bachert, I'd suggest a large grain a salt is required when contemplating his assertions.

Best,

Ben