Druitt - A Link to the East End: The People's Palace

[Ben]

Hi Nats,

In the absence of any evidence that Montague Druitt ever ventured into the East End, let alone Toynbee Hall, it remains an interesting possibility that he visited the latter, not "more probable than not". Same with the location of his chambers; it introduces the possibility that he may have visited that pocket of the East End at some point for reasons competely unknown, but it isn't "more than likely" that he did. He could have. There was nothing physically preventing him. That's all.

Just to be quite clear, the absence of any evidence that Druitt was ever in the East End does not eliminate him as a suspect, but at the same time, it doesn't bolster his candidacy. I was very interested to discover Druitt's entry as a financial contributor to a social reform program which came under the auspices of an organisation which happened to have its headquarters in "ripper" terriroty, but I'd be very surprised if the original contributor expected anyone to draw the inference that this somehow increased the likelihood of Druitt killing prostitutes in the East End.

Regards,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Ben,
Sorry but I have to disagree with you here.Up to now it has "seemed" as though Whitechapel never had wealthy visitors except for eccentric slummers.In fact it had streams of wealthy and upper middle class visitors as can be seen by reading the last chapter of William Fishman"s East End 1888----and many more.The Royals were very frequent visitors particularly Mary later Queen Mary, and the Prince of Wales.
All told they visited the East End two dozen times a year and more.
Not only that but it was and still is a favourite walk along the embankment to the Minories at the Tower---about a mile and a half from Druitt"s chambers.To this day City workers take such walks at lunch time,nowadays its to the lunch time concerts in the City"s Wren churches or their gardens,in those days it was to "perambulate".Can I ask ,have you been to London? How well do you know it Ben?
Best

[aspallek]

The Thomas Druitt mentioned is highly likely to be Archdeacon Thomas Druitt of Cooma New South Wales, who, with his eldest daughter was visiting London at the time. He visited his brother Robert's widow at Strathmore Gardens and later his brother James at Christchurch.
He attended the ordination of the bishop of London and a reception held by the Lord Mayor of London. JOHN RUFFELS.

If so, this would make him an uncle of Montague.

[Ben]

Hi Nats,

I visit London often, being Kent-based, and am very familiar with the city and its history. There seems to a little uncertainty as to what is under dispute here. Of course wealthy and upper-class people visited the East End on occasions in the late Victorian period. "Streams" is obviously an exaggeration however (especially in relation to Northern Spitalfields where the ripper's victims lived), and the wealthy visitors would have been dwarfed, numbers-wise, by the East End proletariat. We're talking specifically about Druitt, and whether he visited the East End. He could have done. There is no evidence that he did. There's certainly no evidence, or even a faint suggestion, that he was geographically familiar with the East End. But it is possible that he visited the district.

Cheers,
Ben

[Septic Blue]

2006 Aerial / 1894 OS Overlay
The People's Palace, Mile End Road, Mile End Old Town


2006 Aerial
Red: The People's Palace, Mile End Road, Mile End Old Town


2006 Aerial / 1894 OS Overlay
Red: 447 Mile End Road, Mile End Old Town
Green: House Seen in Forthcoming Imagery; Bow Road, St. Mary Stratford Bow


2006 Aerial
Red: 447 Mile End Road, Mile End Old Town
Green: House Seen in Forthcoming Imagery; Bow Road, St. Mary Stratford Bow

I thought some of you might be interested in seeing what was probably a very typical middle-class accommodation, for this part of the East End, in 1888.


Bow Road, St. Mary Stratford Bow
at intersection with Coborn Road, St. Mary Stratford Bow
from south, October 2007


Bow Road, St. Mary Stratford Bow
at intersection with Coborn Road, St. Mary Stratford Bow
from southwest, October 2007

I wasn't looking for Jabez Druitt's 1888 home, when I took these photographs; otherwise I would be showing all of you some pictures of 447 Mile End Road. My motivation for capturing these images was the boundary stones on the western and southern faces of the pillar, seen in the foreground.





447 Mile End Road, Mile End Old Town was situated within the Ecclesiastical Parish of Holy Trinity Stepney.


Holy Trinity Church, Holy Trinity Stepney, Mile End Old Town
from south, October 2007


Holy Trinity Church, Holy Trinity Stepney, Mile End Old Town
from south, October 2007


Holy Trinity Church, Holy Trinity Stepney, Mile End Old Town
from southwest, October 2007

[ATTACH]1687[/ATTACH]Green Dot ("6"): The Center of Gravity of the Following Murder Sites: Tabram; Nichols; Chapman; Stride; Eddowes; Kelly

It is located at the southwest corner of Wentworth Street / Osborn Street, St. Mary Whitechapel; approximately seven feet north of the northeast corner of the building, which occupies that spot today.

I have calculated the center of gravity, using three sequences of measurements (Red; Blue; Gold), which all lead to this precise spot. I have also used a fourth sequence of measurements (not depicted), which leads precisely to the same center of gravity. It's ironclad, folks: Trust Me !!!

.........

I have been conducting a great deal of analysis, using various epicenters as my focal points: I have drawn dozens, upon dozens, upon dozens of circles, around these centers of gravity for various analytical purposes.

I intend to present a great deal of my work to the Casebook community; but nothing will be forthcoming until I am able to obtain Stephen's approval for some graphics-intensive dissertations. The message boards cannot accommodate the sort of imagery I wish to present.

Like it; or not: These centers of gravity are a reality. They can be used as the basis of meaningful analysis, just as they can be used to promote fallacy. I believe that my focus is aimed squarely at the former.

My overall aim is the establishment of that, which constitutes "local", with regard to the six murder sites that have been considered here. I truly believe that very few of us have any conception of how the term "local" should apply to our studies of Jack the Ripper.

We simply don't seem to realize that a very sizeable portion of the East End was not worthy the distinction "local"; whereas a sizeable portion of the area that did merit the distinction was not in the East End. If we simply plant our feet at the Aldgate Pump, and look eastward along the High Street, we are ignoring a tremendous chunk of London Real Estate that should have fallen under police scrutiny in 1888, and continued under our scrutiny to this day.

"We simply don't seem to realize that a very sizeable portion of the East End was not worthy the distinction "local"; whereas a sizeable portion of the area that did merit the distinction was not in the East End."

Andy,

You are plainly and simply wasting your time:

1.) Demonstrating that Druitt had a reason to visit the East End - apart from a compulsion to slaughter destitute dolly-mops - is totally unnecessary.

Given Druitt's close proximity to the East End, he cannot be eliminated as a suspect even if there is no evidence that he was ever in the East End. In fact, given his proximity, his candidacy can't even be called into question as far as I can see. So it would seems this argument is at best a moot point ...

"... given his proximity, his candidacy can't even be called into question ..."

Bravo, Bravo, Bravo !!!

Don't answer the call to hold Druitt to a higher standard, Andy. Instead, ask those making the call to demonstrate that Kosminski, Cohen, Bury, Hutchinson, et al ... had legitimate reasons for entering the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street.

Again; don't be suckered into believing that any of this is necessary. It's Not !!!

The issues of geography and relative proximity certainly do nothing to strengthen Druitt's candidacy; but neither do they damage it in any way, shape or form.

2.) Even if there was a meaningful connection between Druitt and 447 Mile End Road, it would have little-to-no value.

According to Google Earth:

The straight-line distance from the murder-site epicenter ("M-5"+Tabram) to King's Bench Walk, The Temple, City of London: 1.72 Miles

The straight-line distance from the murder-site epicenter ("M-5"+Tabram) to 447 Mile End Road, Mile End Old Town: 1.78 Miles

Once, again:

"We simply don't seem to realize that a very sizeable portion of the East End was not worthy the distinction "local"; whereas a sizeable portion of the area that did merit the distinction was not in the East End."

The term "East End" is used all too often as a common denominator for JTR-related issues: "East End culture"; "East End plight"; "East End poverty"; "East End criminal"; "East End prostitute"; "East End connection"; etc ...

I think the Victorian East End was much larger, much more populous, and much more heterogeneous than most of us realize !!!

447 Mile End Road, Mile End Old Town was not "local" to the killing fields of Jack the Ripper, Andy. It simply wasn't !!!

On the other hand; King's Bench Walk, The Temple, City of London, while not "local" to the killing fields of Jack the Ripper either, was infinitely more "local" than most of us realize or are willing to admit.


Colin

[aspallek]

Colin,

Thanks for the wonderful illustrations and photos! Now....

Andy,

You are plainly and simply wasting your time:

1.) Demonstrating that Druitt had a reason to visit the East End - apart from a compulsion to slaughter destitute dolly-mops - is totally unnecessary.

I realize you are trying to back me up, Colin, but this is precisely my point! It is totally unnecessary. It is "icing on the cake" to show that he haad reason to be there. If the "icing" is there, I'll eat it!

Don't answer the call to hold Druitt to a higher standard, Andy. Instead, ask those making the call to demonstrate that Kosminski, Cohen, Bury, Hutchinson, et al ... had legitimate reasons for entering the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street.

Again; don't be suckered into believing that any of this is necessary. It's Not !!!

Yes, Colin. It was I, you recall, who decried this "higher standard" and once started a thread dedicated to shooting it down. In the process, I asked for proof that any of the current suspects were in the East End at the time any of the murders took place. With the exception of Hutchinson, there isn't any. There needn't be. I even asked point blank whether Dr. "White Eyes" Holt was a better suspect than Druitt since Dr. Holt can be placed in the East End with certainty.

The issues of geography and relative proximity certainly do nothing to strengthen Druitt's candidacy; but neither do they damage it in any way, shape or form.

No, here is where I disagree. They do strengthen it, although they are not necessary to his candidacy.

According to Google Earth:, etc.

But it is not just about measurements of yards, feet, and inches. It is also about culture, familiarity and perceived boundaries. Where Druitt to have travelled (above ground) from Cannon Street Station to either The People's Palace or Jabez's home, he would have done so right through the heart of Whitechapel. Having a reason to do this does therefore strengthen his candidacy even though it is not necessary.

447 Mile End Road, Mile End Old Town was not "local" to the killing fields of Jack the Ripper, Andy. It simply wasn't !!!

Apologies if I gave the impression that it was. That was not my intention. It provided Druitt with a potential reason to travel through the heart of the East End and perhaps repeatedly so.

On the other hand; King's Bench Walk, The Temple, City of London, while not "local" to the killing fields of Jack the Ripper either, was infinitely more "local" than most of us realize or are willing to admit.

Not to mention Cannon Street Station, which I am all but certain he frequented.

[Ben]

The crimes of Jack the Ripper were committed in the East End. The killer must then have been in the East End at some stage. If a suspect can't be shown to have ever visited the East End, let alone become familiar with it, they usually play second fiddle to those who can. Ask any criminologist or policeman investigating a case of serial murder, and s/he will agree. Cohen, Kosminski, Barnett, Hutchinson etc may not have had a legitimate reason to enter the back yard of Hanbury Street but being locally-resident for sufficient time to be familiar with the district, they were in a circumstantially better position to do so.

But it is not just about measurements of yards, feet, and inches. It is also about culture, familiarity and perceived boundaries.

Exactly, Andy, and legitimate "geographical profiliers" will take this into account rather than relying on pure geography. For that crucial reason (and even if we disregard the fact that the killer headed East after Mitre Square, not West), a connection between Druitt and an address on Mile End Road in the East End would carry more weight than a connection to King's Bench Walk in the affluent City. In the present case - and without wishing to nitpick - the rather tenuous connection between MJD and Jabez hints only at a potential reason for visiting the former location.

If a potential reason for being in the East End bolsters a suspect's candidacy or is tantamount to "icing on the cake" when contemplating the possibile guilt of a suspect, then a connection to that area of the East End is not "totally unnecessary" but rather useful, as you appear to recognize.

Best regards,
Ben

[aspallek]

If a potential reason for being in the East End bolsters a suspect's candidacy or is tantamount to "icing on the cake" when contemplating the possible guilt of a suspect, then a connection to that area of the East End is not "totally unnecessary" but rather useful, as you appear to recognize.

Perhaps this is an exercise in syntactics. Showing that Druitt had a connection to the East End is unnecessary to his status as a viable suspect as long as it can be shown that he had reasonable access. It is as unnecessary to that status as it would be unnecessary to show that Kosminski ever had reason to go into the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street. Colin is quite right about that.

However, you are correct, Ben, if you mean that showing Druitt to have a potential connection to the East End is not totally unnecessary to making a more convincing case against him. This I have never denied.

"Tenuous" is a relative term. I'm not so sure the relationship was that tenuous. We know with certainty that Jabez was in written communication with Montague's first cousin at the very time of the murders. We also know that Montague had been in contact with these sibling cousins, though there does not seem to have been a close relationship. Yes, that could be tenuous. On the other hand, we now know that Montague had an interest in a social project just down the Mile End Road, half a mile from Jabez. This rather strengthens the possibility that Montague had contact with Jabez.

[Septic Blue]

... a connection between Druitt and an address on Mile End Road in the East End would carry more weight than a connection to King's Bench Walk in the affluent City.

No, it would not !!!

The "affluent City", you say ???

If Druitt had decided to take a late-night/early-morning stroll - after the bankers, traders and clerks had all made their nightly exodus from The City - from his chambers in King's Bench Walk, toward the southwest corner of Wentworth Street / Osborn Street, he would have encountered more poverty and vice (per capita) during the first half of his journey, than during the first half of a similar trek from 447 Mile End Road.

Using data compiled from School Board Visitor's reports, Charles Booth estimated that 42,561 persons inhabited The City of London, in 1889-1891; and that 31.0% lived in poverty; while 54.0% were of blue-collar society, but above the line of poverty.

Again: The "affluent City", you say ???

The notion that some sort of mystical force shield protected those in The City from the harsh realities of life in Tower Hamlets in 1888, is as mythical as the idea of our man sporting a top-hat and cape !!!

Booth included 447 Mile End Road in a group of School Board sub-districts, which he estimated to be inhabited by 28,737 persons, in 1889-1891; of whom an estimated 21.0% lived in poverty.

This area was bounded for the most part, by Cambridge Heath Road (west), the tracks of the Great Eastern Railway (north), The River Lea (east), and Mile End Road / Bow Road (south). It would have constituted the scenery to Druitt's right, during the first 1/2-to-2/3 of his hypothetical stroll from 447 Mile End Road to the southwest corner of Wentworth Street / Osborn Street. And again; was "estimated to be inhabited by 28,737 persons, in 1889-1891; of whom an estimated 21.0% lived in poverty."

The scenery to Druitt's left, during the first 1/2-to-3/4 of this hypothetical trek to JtR's Mecca, would have included two areas established by Booth, which were bounded by New Road (west), Whitechapel Road / Mile End Road (north), Regent's Canal (east), and Commercial Road (south). Druitt would have first passed an area, which Booth estimated to be inhabited by 29,442 persons, in 1889-1891; of whom an estimated 31.3% lived in poverty: And then the second area - approaching the London Hospital -, which Booth estimated to be inhabited by 31,385 persons, in 1889-1891; of whom an estimated 24.6% lived in poverty.

Again: If Druitt had decided to take a late-night/early-morning stroll - after the bankers, traders and clerks had all made their nightly exodus from The City - from his chambers in King's Bench Walk, toward the southwest corner of Wentworth Street / Osborn Street, he would have encountered more poverty and vice (per capita) during the first half of his journey, than during the first half of a similar trek from 447 Mile End Road.

and legitimate "geographical profiliers" will take this into account rather than relying on pure geography.

"... rather than relying on pure geography ..."

I would call Booth's work "demography"; as opposed to "pure geography". Wouldn't you ???

I bent over backward to find that data, and spent quite a bit of money in the process, Ben. It seems strange that someone like myself, whom you have labeled a "hobbyist"; and whom you now imply to be an "illegitimate "geographical profiler"" would do such a thing. Hmmm !!!

I could suggest that you rely purely on conventional wisdom; but I won't.

OOOPS !!! I just did, didn't I ??? Oh, well !!!

I guess I had better don my gas mask. I sense that some political lobbyist smoke-screens and unadulterated bullshite are forthcoming.

I'm sure I'll be called a "hobbyist", yet again; while some of my assertions will be referred to as "ejaculations". And, of course, you'll poke fun at my multiple exclamation points (!!!), and excessive use of emboldened red typeface.

Go for it !!! Have at it !!! Be my guest !!!

While you're at it, make up a few things along the way, to suit your agenda. Case in point: The notion that Maybrick's business partner, who had offices in Cullum Street, St. Dionis Backchurch / St. Gabriel, City of London had "no reason whatsoever - business or pleasure - to ever familiarize himself with any part of the East End" (or words to that effect), since Cullum Street was "well within the City" - ignoring of course (or perhaps sweeping under the carpet), the fact that the East End was full of cotton warehouses, in 1888. Push a square peg into a round hole; why don't you ???

I'm going to say this again, because it's worth repeating (and, because I am obsessive compulsive):

"The notion that some sort of mystical force shield protected those in The City from the harsh realities of life in Tower Hamlets in 1888, is as mythical as the idea of our man sporting a top-hat and cape !!!"


Colin


P.S.

... (especially in relation to Northern Spitalfields where the ripper's victims lived), ...

You've made that reference to "Northern Spitalfields" once too often, Ben.

The following murder victims whose names were placed in the so-called "Whitechapel Murders" file, had last known addresses in the SOUTHERN 1/3 of Christ Church Spitalfields: Smith, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly and Coles. McKenzie's last known address was in The Old Artillery Ground.

Get a map !!!

[Ben]

Hi Andy,

From a criminoligcal perspective at least, the fact that Druitt wasn't living within or relatively close to the murder district would certainly class him as a "commuter" serial killer and as such, a rarity, given the closely clustered nature of the crime sites. In that respect, it would count as minus rather than a plus with regard to his candidacy. Not insurmountable, as you say, and certainly nothing that would "eliminate" him, but a con rather than a pro.

All the best,
Ben

[aspallek]

Ben,

I think there are a couple of flaws to this approach.

1. I'm not sure I would classify JtR as a true "serial killer." Five victims on four dates in a relatively short period of time is not the typical picture, in my mind anyway, of a serial killer. Even if we add Tabram in an effort to increase the number of victims, this effort would be partially offset by the possibility that Stride might not have been.

2. I simply do not believe it is sound to take observations that have their genesis in modern times and culture and import them to the Victorian Era. Even if this has been done retroactively in a few cases with seeming success, I think it opens up sufficient problems as to be dicey.

[Ben]

Rant unnecessary, Colin.

I labelled you neither a hobbyist nor an illegitimate geographical profiler. I did describe the City as affluent because, in the main, it was. If you ventured onto Osbourn Street, you would have ventured into non-affluent territory, but that wasn't in the city, was it? If you bothered to read the thread, you may have picked up upon Andy's observation that cultural and class bounderies existed between the City and the East End as well as purely geographical ones. Serial offenders are known to operate within such bounderies.

Yes, toffs occasionally visited the East End because there was no physical impediment that prevented them from doing so. Who ever argued against that? And what's with all those statistics, Colin? Who's disputing them, and what is the observation? I couldn't give a rat's arse if Maybrick's business partner ever ventured into the East End, but businessman at the helm of their company often employ others to receive stock from warehouses etc.

[Ben]

Hi Andy,

Jack the Ripper is irrefutably a "serial killer" by definition. Some have killed more, some have killed less, and some have killed about the same number. Nothing hugely unique here - just an interesting name attached to an interesting case, courtesy of its unsolved nature. It still wouldn't invalidate the observation that most serial killers whose crimes are closely clustered tend to be locally resident; an observation that isn't remotelyt weakened on the basis that the cimes were committed in the Victorian era. Why would it? In fact, how would the Victorian nature of the crimes impact negatively on our ability to draw parallels with other serials?

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

It's worth noting that the City was relatively sparsely populated - a significant proportion of its real estate being given over to commercial/clerical enterprises, with comparatively few residential dwellings. This was one of the reasons why Charles Booth didn't include the City in his poverty surveys, rather than its exclusion being a reflection of the absence of the poor.

Not that this observation is addressed to one side of the debate or the other.

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=Ben;18015]Hi Andy,

From a criminoligcal perspective at least, the fact that Druitt wasn't living within or relatively close to the murder district would certainly class him as a "commuter" serial killer and as such, a rarity, given the closely clustered nature of the crime sites. In that respect, it would count as minus rather than a plus with regard to his candidacy. Not insurmountable, as you say, and certainly nothing that would "eliminate" him, but a con rather than a pro.
[ written by Ben]

reply by Natalie

Given that Druitt was the "prime suspect" of the Macnaghten,the Commissioner of Police,that raises the question as to why as well as raises the stakes doesnt it?
Hutchinson BTW wasnt even remotely suspected,by anyone at any time during or after ,even though a huge house to house search of the area by the police,had eliminated all those in "shared accomodation" such as the Victoria Home.