Druitt - A Link to the East End: The People's Palace

[aspallek]

Yes, Chris, I believe you are right with regard to Thomas. Jabez, on the other hand, while not a close relative, was in written communication with Montague's first cousin in 1888 and 1889. Jabez lived at 447 Mile End Road in 1881, near where it turns into Bow Road. Where was the People's Palace? I presume at the Whitechapel Road (opposite) end?

Here is a sketch of Walter Besant. He looks a bit like George Sims, who insisted that he himself was a spitting image of the Ripper!



Sims:

[Ben]

Rather that he was aware of and concerned about the plight of the East End and the efforts to do something about it.

Absolutely, Chris. At least, that was the inference I drew from it. Your note of caution is well taken; the entry you uncovered is indicative of a interest in the East End rather than a physical familiarity with it.

Best regards,
Ben

[aspallek]

Relation between Jabez Druitt's home (447 Mile End Road) and The People's Palace (327 Mile End Road):

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=&saddr=447+mile+end+road&daddr=327+Mile+End+Rd,+Poplar,+Greater+London&sll=51.44256,0.093384&sspn=0.058955,0.138016&ie=UTF8&z=16

For some reason it is not centering correctly. Zoom out or click on "Get Directions" button at the top. Distance 0.5 mile. Barnardo's "Ragged School," a musem today, is nearby -- just near Ben Johnson Road and Copperfield Road below, near the football stadium seen if you activate the satellite image.

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
So far there is still no proof that Druitt had been to Whitechapel as such.However,he would have been unusual,particularly as it states on a number of occasions,that Toynbee Hall in particular was a focus of great interest among Oxford and Cambridge graduates.One of the Aclands for example,Arthur , lodged there as well as working there, after coming down from Oxford,in order to do service work at Toynbee Hall ,year after year.He was from an aristocratic family.The Duke of Clarence spoke at a Toynbee Hall annual meeting in 1885.Druitt"s neighbour in Blackheath,Edward T Cook, his classmate at Winchester,fellow student at New College Oxford,of exactly the same age,also spent year after year in service work there and its all recorded in black and white----they even spoke on the same subjects in the debates at school. It therefore seems most p[robable that Druitt,when he gave his signature and donated his £1 to an organisation that was initially based in Toynbee Hall,had visited Whitechapel.Its not definite its quite true----not yet.But to persist in this myth that no middle class gent or aristocrat ever had lodgings in or visited Whitechapel is totally untrue.Some eighty graduates per year ,from both Oxford and Cambridge from 1884 onwards, livid in and lodged in 28 Commercial Street,a building adjoining George yard,and that Ben ,really is the centre of the murderer"s comfort zone.*

Another place that lodged the Oxford "settlement" graduates was the Bernhard Baron Settlement overseen by Mr BLQ Henriques in Berner Street.This was because Toynbee couldnt cope with the number of graduates wanting digs.Some graduates found their own digs like those who rented out a disused "beershop" in Leman Street.
Oh and its likely one or two of these well heeled chaps would have owned an Astrakhan trimmed coat,spats and watches on gold chains!

Natalie
* which ofcourse does not mean that JtR was one of these young men.It just means that a cross section of classes visited Whitechapel on a regular basis.

[c.d.]

I still do not understand this Druitt in the East End thing at all. Now if he was reported to be living in Hawaii at the time, then yes, I would like to see some evidence that he was in the East End during that time as well. But if he was a short train ride away and obviously had the money to pay for the train, the point is what? I mean it is not like you had to sign some sort of book every time you entered the East End. Obviously he could have gone there quite easily and there would be no record of it.

Again I am quite baffled by the intent of this thread. Maybe it's just me.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi Nats,

It therefore seems most p[robable that Druitt,when he gave his signature and donated his £1 to an organisation that was initially based in Toynbee Hall,had visited Whitechapel.Its not definite its quite true----not yet

Not so much probable, as possible.

As Gareth pointed out earlier, we've been donating to various charities since the year dot but that doesn't mean most of us have ever visited the headquarters of that charity in person. He certainly wouldn't have been unusual if he didn't visit Toynbee Hall. Even if Oxbridge graduates were known to have an interest in it, it doesn't mean most of them did. Of course it's a myth that aristocrats (etc) "never" visited or lodged in that area of the East End, but they were in the appreciable minority, and they weren't likely to parade their wealth in that locality, even if they did own "Astrakhan trimmed coat,spats and watches on gold chains!" For every Oxford graduate who lived in the heart of the murder district during the Autumm of Terror, there were hundreds of local, working class denizens who outnumbered them.

Ben

[Ben]

Obviously he could have gone there quite easily and there would be no record of it.

Right, CD, but evidence that he could have gone there doesn't constitute evidence that he did.

[c.d.]

Right, CD, but evience that he could have gone there doesn't constitute evidence that he did.

As I said, this goes by me completely.

c.d.

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
Put into the context of his known associates I believe its more likely than not that Druitt paid a visit to these places.
Several of his old New College student pals were based in lodgings there, so the donation of £1 [or £75 in todays money]to the People"s Pallace,taken together with other factors, the chief one being his long association with ET Cook of Blackheath,a Winchester classmate,a debating chum at New College,at Oxford University and also the president of the Palmerston Club,which a Druitt is kinown to have attended.This same ET Cook was a man who devoted much of his spare time for many years to the 28 Commercial Street,Toynbee Hall-where the People"s Palace had its initial headquarters.None of this "proves" Druitt paid a visit,Ben,thats quite true, but its looking quite probable-in my opinion.
Natalie

[aspallek]

Again I am quite baffled by the intent of this thread. Maybe it's just me.

c.d.

It's not.

[Natalie Severn]

It's not.

But-on the other hand Andy and c.d.,it has long been stated-and in several books too,that there is "no evidence" Druitt ever visited the East End,the reason frequently given that the "better off" just didnt "go there".But we are finding that not only did they "go there",they went in quite large numbers.
Apart from all this "service" stuff, a whole lot of "City" commuters, as well as other habitual rail users ,started to use the relatively newly opened Aldgate lines,which brought them to the bottom of Commercial Street,while the older Liverpool St station took them to the top of it,as it is today.
Natalie

[c.d.]

But-on the other hand Andy and c.d.,it has long been stated-and in several books too,that there is "no evidence" Druitt ever visited the East End,the reason frequently given that the "better off" just didnt "go there".But we are finding that not only did they "go there",they went in quite large numbers.
Apart from all this "service" stuff, a whole lot of "City" commuters, as well as other habitual rail users ,started to use the relatively newly opened Aldgate lines,which brought them to the bottom of Commercial Street,while the older Liverpool St station took them to the top of it,as it is today.
Natalie

Hi Natalie,

As I see it, the premise of this thread only really applies to those suspects who were know to reside some distance from the East End. My example of someone known to reside in Hawaii for example. It would seem that the resident of Hawaii could be safely eliminated from the suspect list unless there was some evidence that he was known to be in the East End at some point. Given Druitt's close proximity to the East End, he cannot be eliminated as a suspect even if there is no evidence that he was ever in the East End. In fact, given his proximity, his candidacy can't even be called into question as far as I can see. So it would seems this argument is at best a moot point despite what some authors want to make of it.

Besides, do we expect that Druitt would have gone around tagging every door in the East End with his name or would have screamed out "I am Montague John Druitt and I am here slumming in the East End?" He could have easily have been there without some sort of record of his visits.

c.d.

[aspallek]

Hi Nats,

I don't want to start this all over again but c.d.'s point and mine is that there does not have to be any proof that Druitt was in the End End in order for him to be considered a suspect. He had the opportunity to be there. Now we see that he had multiple connections to the East End with relative Jabez and his interest in the social reforms going on there. Even this was not necessary but it adds strength to his candidacy as a suspect.

Cautionary notes are fine and they are taken in that vein. However, I have yet to see anyone in this thread jump up and say "This proves that Montague was in the East End."

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Andy and c.d.,
Yes I follow .I suppose that for me a viable suspect has to have some "familiarity" with Whitechapel.But with both Liverpool St station and this recently opened Aldgate station, making it so easy to access Whitechapel for anybody anywhere in London ,I agree,the proximity of Druitt"s chambers just a walk along the river, make it more than likely.In fact I was reading that earlier in that century people regularly thought nothing at all of walking six or seven miles to a given place,let alone the couple of miles we are talking about.
Natalie

[Johnr]

The Thomas Druitt mentioned is highly likely to be Archdeacon Thomas Druitt of Cooma New South Wales, who, with his eldest daughter was visiting London at the time. He visited his brother Robert's widow at Strathmore Gardens and later his brother James at Christchurch.
He attended the ordination of the bishop of London and a reception held by the Lord Mayor of London. JOHN RUFFELS.