Upon what basis did the Druitt family suspect Montague?

[lynn cates]

description

Hello Colin.

"The one thing which has always struck me about Stephen White's alleged sighting is what a good fit it seems to be, in terms of physical appearance, for Montague John Druitt."

And several others.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Colin.

"The one thing which has always struck me about Stephen White's alleged sighting is what a good fit it seems to be, in terms of physical appearance, for Montague John Druitt."

And several others.

Cheers.
LC

I can't satisfy myself that a successful cricketer would have an awkward gait.

[Wickerman]

The one thing which has always struck me about Stephen White's alleged sighting is what a good fit it seems to be, in terms of physical appearance, for Montague John Druitt.

Hello Bridewell.

If I'm not mistaken the Stephen White story was first published about 30 years after the murders. I think around 1919, if its the same story I'm thinking about.
(Is there an earlier version?)

Assuming White's story was true, or at least based on an actual occurrence, we can only speculate how much the "Ripper as a Toff" tradition may have coloured White's story over the 30 years.

That aside, there are several witness descriptions throughout the murders that could quite easily describe Montague Druitt.

PC William Smith's suspect or Lawende's suspect, the man described by Mrs Kennedy, and by Hutchinson, not forgetting the one who appears to have made a nuisance of himself on successive nights, him described by Mrs Paumier. Who, according to reports, was taken in for questioning by police on the night of Kelly's murder:
"...the man had a black moustache, was about five feet six inches high, and wore a black silk hat, a black coat, and speckled trousers."

All the above descriptions could easily describe the same man, not a leap of faith to see the figure of Druitt as the central character behind all of them.

Regards, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

Here's a question I can't answer myself, because I don't have British sensibilities: does Druitt "look Jewish"?

He's not the most quintessential looking bar mitzvah boy I've ever seen, but he has dark hair, a somewhat prominent nose, and a squarer face than what strikes me a typically English, but I really wouldn't know. He also looks like he could have brown eyes and a slightly olive complexion, but I'm judging from B&W photos, so again, I don't know.

In the US, in 2012, a Jew can really look like anything, because there are so many converts, and so many people who have a gentile father or grandfather (or mother who converted, for that matter). There's still a "look" you can see in most Jewish people (although on Dec. 22, it might be ennui). But again that's American Jews. I met some Jewish people who were nth generation French a few years ago, and they didn't look Jewish, especially, to me.

I'm not asking because I'm saying that if Druitt looks Jewish then, OMG, he must be the Jewish-looking person witnesses saw with some of the victims. I'm just asking because they way he looked may have been another point or two in his column as far as MacNaughten was concerned-- you know "he fit witness descriptions," at least in a vague way. If he'd had ginger hair, round blue eyes, and a tiny nose, you'd really have to write off either him, or any witness who said "of Jewish appearance." As it is, I think not, but I'm still not absolutely sure what "Jewish appearance" means. What it means to me is not necessarily what it means to someone British, nor what it meant in 1888.

[Robert]

I don't think he looks Jewish, in fact if you include the photographs of him at Winchester, he doesn't look Jewish at all.

[Wickerman]

I'm not asking because I'm saying that if Druitt looks Jewish then, OMG, he must be the Jewish-looking person witnesses saw with some of the victims.

Good question, but bear in mind those witness descriptions were in poor light, some from an odd angle, and others from a distance.

but I'm still not absolutely sure what "Jewish appearance" means. What it means to me is not necessarily what it means to someone British, nor what it meant in 1888.

Being dressed like a Jew dresses could be enough, we are dealing with subjective opinions here, so who knows what any given witness assumes a "Jewish appearance" means.
Druitt could certainly pass for a young, dark, and well-dressed man, and if in finery - spats, gold watch chain with Astrachan coat, even as a foreigner?

Druitt apparently was not short, fat & hairy, as they say...

Regards, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

I don't think he looks Jewish, in fact if you include the photographs of him at Winchester, he doesn't look Jewish at all.

"What does Jewish look like?" is a tough question, especially because most Jews do know another Jew when they see one. Not always, but a lot of the time. That said, I would not go on looks alone when making out the list for my Purim party.

That's why I've been curious to know what exactly "Jewish appearance" meant. I suppose if it meant "full beard, peyos, and yarmulke," it might have said that more specifically. Has anyone ever found a written description of Druitt? in his photos, he looks like he has very dark hair, and probably has brown eyes, but it's hard to tell. If his hair is greased back, it might look a lot darker than it really is, and he has pretty deep-set eyes, which will tend to look dark in a B&W photo.

[Robert]

I don't know of any description of Druitt. If William did report him as a missing person and give the police a description, it hasn't survived.

Of course, if you go with Anderson then there was a case of a Jew failing to recognize a fellow Jew, because Anderson writes of the witness "learning" of his Jewishness. In fact he'd have had to fail to recognize him as a Jew twice, if he saw him first at a murder site.

I guess "Jewish appearance" is subjective, but like all appearances - Irish appearance, Scottish, Welsh, Yorkshire, East London - there is a certain range of face types and expressions which offer some guidance when trying to guess, though it's not foolproof.

[Wickerman]

I don't know of any description of Druitt. If William did report him as a missing person and give the police a description, it hasn't survived.

When William finds a suicide note among his brother's things, and he hasn't been seen for a week, and its now about the 12-13th of the month, what was William doing for the next two and a half weeks (18 days?)?
Surely he must have reached out to someone, police, press, private investigators?

In fact he'd have had to fail to recognize him as a Jew twice, if he saw him first at a murder site.

I think that speaks more to the embellishment of the whole scenario.

I guess "Jewish appearance" is subjective, but like all appearances - Irish appearance, Scottish, Welsh, Yorkshire, East London - there is a certain range of face types and expressions which offer some guidance when trying to guess, though it's not foolproof.

Right, "Jewish appearance" is in the eye of the beholder, what looks Jewish to me might not look Jewish to you.
I guess its safe to assume the guy wasn't exposing himself....


Regards, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

Ignoring that tasteless remark, harumphhh, Jewishness is in the eye of the beholder, but there are things it isn't, like blond, or ginger-haired, blue-eyed, and soforth. I guess we're assuming that since the witness said "Jewish appearance," rather than asserting that the person was with certainty, Jewish, there was nothing definitive, like peyos, yarmulke, or tzitzis.

[Robert]

Hi Jon

I suppose William did something, though he seems not to have used the personal columns of the Times - "Montague, please contact. William." - that sort of thing.

[RivkahChaya]

Hi Jon

I suppose William did something, though he seems not to have used the personal columns of the Times - "Montague, please contact. William." - that sort of thing.

If he found a suicide note, it'd be a little late for that.

[Robert]

Hi Riv

I thought there were blond Jews? Certainly I have known blond Jewish women - though you can never be certain with women how much is hair dye.

[RivkahChaya]

Of course there are blonde Jews, but blond(e) hair is not what people have in mind when they say somebody "looks Jewish."

Marilyn Monroe was Jewish.

But, that was a dye job, and she converted.

[Wickerman]

.... I guess we're assuming that since the witness said "Jewish appearance," rather than asserting that the person was with certainty, Jewish, there was nothing definitive, like peyos, yarmulke, or tzitzis.

Hutchinson's man with "Jewish appearance" was heard to say, "And the man said you will be alright for what I have told you.", so the opportunity was there for Hutch' to mention an accent in the interview, assuming there was one.

Mrs Long's man was of "foreign appearance" but was only heard to say, "Will you?", maybe not enough to detect an accent.

Wm. Marshall's man was only heard to say, "You would say anything but your prayers.", he could have detected an accent if there was one, but Marshall did not describe his appearance ethnically speaking.

One common factor is the presence of a well-dressed man, I would only take the stated "foreign/Jewish appearance" as being a sort of euphemism for "well-dressed".

Regards, Jon S.