Upon what basis did the Druitt family suspect Montague?

[Lechmere]

Robert
Dismissals when in 'serious trouble' tend to be abrupt. When suicide follows it is an even fairer assumption.
furthermore druitt seems to gave happily attended a board meeting of his cricket club - that had close connections with his school - a couple of weeks prior to his suicide. This further reinforces the abrupt assumption.
We have:
Cricket club board meeting - 19th November
Likely date for dismissal - 30th November
Likely date of Suicide - 1st December
That is all quite abrupt.
It is also likely that when he was dismissed, he verbally told his school colleagues that he was going abroad as his cricket club board meeting on 21st December (before his body as found and before it was known was dead) Reported that he had gone abroad.
It is also likely that he was given the two cheques upon his dismissal.
Uncashed.
Everything points to abrupt.

[Lechmere]

Robert
We obviously cannot be 100% sure but there isn't the slightest whiff of female perfume around Monty.
No fiancée, no interested party - nothing spoken of at all. He was no spring chicken. The various reports we have of his life could easily have given mention of a female interest. But the sources are silent.

[Bridewell]

Robert
We obviously cannot be 100% sure but there isn't the slightest whiff of female perfume around Monty.
No fiancée, no interested party - nothing spoken of at all. He was no spring chicken. The various reports we have of his life could easily have given mention of a female interest. But the sources are silent.

The sources are also silent about his allegedly being 'effete'.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

He was 'sexually insane'
He was dismissed abruptly from a boys school
He liked male team sports

Harry Paget Flashman, the rampaging, testosterone-fuelled school bully of 'Tom Brown's Schooldays' (& George Macdonald Fraser's 'Flashman' books) would also fall into this somewhat idiosyncratic definition of 'effete'.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

His inability to knuckle down to hard work is another dignity - he was a gadabout.

A young man who supplemented his fledging career as a barrister with additional employment as a schoolmaster probably had either a pressing need for money (not supported by the known facts) or a strong work ethic. That doesn't sound like a gadabout to me.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Robert]

Lechmere, if he was dismissed on Friday 30th ("since Friday...") and committed suicide on Dec 1st, then it was a rather strange note to write - if it was written on the Friday, why would he not have put "today"? Ditto if it was written on Dec 1st (with "yesterday" substituted). He could have written the note on Dec 2nd or 3rd of course. But why couldn't Valentine have simply said to Druitt, around October say, "your work isn't up to scratch, you spend too much time in court. I'll have to let you go"? I think Chris Scott may have found the advert that Valentine placed when looking for Monty's replacement, but I cannot now remember it. Another possibility is that if Druitt's mental health was deteriorating, the effort of masking it may have been too much for him and he may have had a "turn" or become hysterical in class. That would have been curtains for his teaching, as the boys would never look up to him again. If he was simply depressed about his dismissal and this was the only reason for his suicide, why would he drag his mother into it? That mention of his mother suggests to me that he had for some time been worried about his mental state - whether justifiably or unjustifiably, who can tell? Sometimes people who are worried like that, produce the very condition they were worried about.In any case, we simply do not know why Druitt was dismissed and we particularly do not know if he was dismissed for being homosexual, effete, or having his eyes too close together.

We do not know if Monty was ever engaged, or "walking out" with a woman, or whether he visited brothels. We know a bit more about him than Macnaghten did - but that's not saying much.

[lynn cates]

**** a doodle do

Hello Neil. Thanks.

"The 'Kosminski thing' being?"

Shocked. That's what I am, shocked. (heh-heh)

Seriously, before the chicken can be cooked for dinner, it must be properly choked. (heh-heh) And Aaron knew how by all accounts.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

Just for the record and without going round the whole boring circuit of counter arguments again - my position is set out in earlier ripostes - I totally reject Lechmere's to me foundationless and utterly circumstanial view of Druitt.

Phil H

[RivkahChaya]

FWIW, I think it's true that back in 1888, people did lump "homosexuals" in with all sorts of crazy people, and consider then more likely to commit all sorts of crimes, violent ones in particular, and people generally believed that someone who was exclusively homosexual hated (or feared) women, so if a gay person came onto the radar for some other reason, he would suddenly have two strikes against him.

However, we know, now, in 2012 (and have know since the 1980s, actually), that when gay people are serial killers, or at any rate, sexual serial killers (there are killers for profit, like Aileen Wuornos, but I think whatever we can't assume about JTR, we can assume his motive wasn't robbery), they kill people of the gender they are attracted to. Jeffrey Dahmer killed adult men, mostly black; John Wayne Gacy killed white, teenage boys. Ted Bundy, on the other hand, killed slender women with long, brown hair. (If I'm going to be convinced MJK was killed by someone else, it will be because of her age, not the difference in degree of mutilation.)

I don't know whether "effete" in Britain is a synonym for "homosexual." It the US it means having mannerisms generally associated with homosexuals, but it doesn't mean that a person described that way is necessarily gay. You could use it in the US to describe someone who leaves a working class neighborhood for an Ivy League college, and comes back for winter break with a lot of affected mannerisms. You see that in movies more often than in real life, but it's the first non-sexual use of the word that comes to mind.

Anyway, if Druitt was, if fact, gay, then I think he's off the hook. If the point is simply that he may have appeared gay, and that, to the police at the time, was evidence, that makes sense, because people did make that leap. However, you will have to show me that someone on the JTR investigation team knew Druitt, or that the police had these photos of him that make him look so "effete." If the police at the time did not believe him to be gay, or "effete,' or whatever, then it wasn't part of the case against him.

[Bridewell]

I don't know whether "effete" in Britain is a synonym for "homosexual."

The Oxford Dictionary defines if as meaning 'feeble' or 'effeminate'. I can't see any justification for applying either adjective to MJD. He may have been so, but I see no evidence that he was.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Robert]

Whatever effeminacy he may have exuded, it obviously didn't bother Valentine who had him on the staff for a good seven years or more.

[Bridewell]

Whatever effeminacy he may have exuded, it obviously didn't bother Valentine who had him on the staff for a good seven years or more.

Good point!

Regards, Bridewell.

[Wickerman]

Robert
Dismissals when in 'serious trouble' tend to be abrupt.

I wonder if there has not been a rush to judgement here.

Likely date for dismissal - 30th November

The assumed date of 30 November is based on an assumed typo, that "30 December" should have read "30 November".
Typing the wrong month is possible, but equally typing "30" instead of "3" is also possible.

If Druitt was dismissed on Monday 3rd December, he could have written his note on the same day, and jumped in the Thames that evening.

We assume that whatever happened on Friday is connected with his dismissal. Rather than being dismissed on the same day, isn't it just as likely that Mr Valentine would talk with Druitt after the incident, and then take the weekend to consider his options, and perhaps make some inquiries.
He calls Druitt into his office on Monday morning and dismisses him.
Druitt's tombstone carries the date 4th December (Tues) for his death.


Being fired on Monday and writing his suicide note, then committing suicide the same day, or the next day, is more consistent with him writing "Since Friday". Killing himself on Saturday 1st means his "Since Friday" should have read "Since yesterday".
Anyone writing a suicide note on Saturday is hardly likely to write "Since Friday".

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

In any case, we simply do not know why Druitt was dismissed and we particularly do not know if he was dismissed for being homosexual, effete, or having his eyes too close together.

We don't even know if his dismissal was connected to whatever "Since Friday.." makes reference to. Were they related or unrelated?

He was in work as a 'Special Pleader' through November, up until the 27th at least?, so when was Druitt supposed to make time for teaching?
Was it a weekend assignment?
Did these schools function over the weekend?

Regards, Jon S.

[Robert]

Jon, I wish i knew more about Monty's duties at Valentine's school, and how he reconciled them with the rest of his life. He had to make time for his legal work, his school work, his sporting recreations, and, accordiung to Lechmere, the lengthy rituals of Victorian courtship.