Upon what basis did the Druitt family suspect Montague?

[Phil H]

Wickerman - I interpreted your posts as you wrote them. Maybe you should look at them again. I remain confused by your stance - every post you write appears to dig Druitt deeper into the mire as I read them!!

Hey Ho! We'll just have to agree to disagree i suppose. Methodologically. I do, of course, accept at face value what you say your position is.

Phil H

[Lechmere]

Was Druitt effete?
All his pictures suggest so. He does not strike a ‘butch’ pose does he? The pictures are deliberately posed to create the effect Druitt wanted to create. He was not snapped unawares by candid camera. Whispy bum fluff on his lip, he looks effete to me.
I detect a similar strain in his known debate topics: whether Bismark's influence was "morally and socially a curse to the world” and that “while previous generations believed 'man is made for States,' it is a 'vast improvement that States should be made for man, as they are now.”
I would suggest that for that age these were self consciously ‘humanistic’, small l liberal and anti-imperial. Effete.
Druitt was said to be sexually insane (by Macnaghten).
He was a barrister but worked as a teacher, indicating that he was not very successful in the law and suggest he did not take it very seriously. He seemed more interested in spending time playing cricket than progressing his career. This also seems to explain the fact that Druitt did not get a very good degree at Oxford. A gad about.
He was dismissed from his teaching role just before his death and was in ‘serious trouble’ at the school. It seems likely that this was linked to the sexually insane jibe. Homosexuality was regarded as a form of sexual insanity in this period. Homosexuals were regarded as women haters. It seems more likely that Druitt was involved in inappropriate sexual behaviour at the school.
He left a note for his brother, wailing that he was going like his mother – i.e. insane. Beside being an obvious indication that he was mad, this is suggestive to me of Montague Druitt being a bit of a Mummy’s boy.
I would describe him as effete.

I didn’t realise I was engaging in class warfare.

[Robert]

Hi Lechmere

You forgot to say that Monty’s eyes were too close together.

I don’t see anything effete in his politics – if they were his politics. I believe that in those debates, sometimes a debater would simply be assigned a position and told to argue it as best he could, which was good training for a future legal career and especially good training for a successful political career, where arguing something which you do not believe, is positively essential.

I do not know how much effort Monty put into his university studies or legal career. Perhaps he was the kind of person who didn’t feel that he had to keep proving himself. I do however give you full credit for your highly original inversion of a popular stereotype, for in your world the swots are the masculine types while the cricket and rugby brigade are effete gadabouts.

As for his fear of going like his mother : if someone notices mental troubles in himself, and knows his mother to be similarly afflicted, then (taking into account heredity) the connection is a natural one to make. He could have written that he was going like his father, but that would have been a bit of a fib, since his father wasn’t mad.

[Wickerman]

(re: Macnaghten)
I'm not even sure what he had "little doubt" over. Did he have little doubt that Druitt was in fact guilty, or simply little doubt that Druitt's family thought so? Or just little doubt that his informant was reliable? that says nothing about his informant's original source.

"...I have little doubt but that his own family believed him to have been the murderer."

That seems quite straight forward, but "little doubt" is the same as saying "almost certain", Macnaghten is expressing a subjective opinion. Did anyone else in the force think the same?, likely not, otherwise his choice of words could have been stronger.
The issue of Macnaghten's source, possibly Farquharson MP, has been proposed by Jonathan Hainsworth.

Macnaghten uses a similar but stronger phrase when talking about the arrival of Diemschitz..
"With regard to the double murder which took place on 30th September, there is no doubt but that the man was disturbed by some Jews who drove up to a Club,.."

In that case we know from our own endeavors that whether the killer was interrupted is a matter of opinion, ie; no facts to support the claim either way. So Mac. was more convinced about Stride's murder being interrupted than he was about Druitt's guilt? (comparing "little doubt" with "no doubt")

So, as Mac's theories are shaped more by opinion than fact, then we must look back at Farquharson (tentatively - assuming this was his source), and wonder, how did Farquharson arrive at his opinion?

Regards, Jon S.

[Phil H]

Lechmere - emtirely different conclusions could be drawn from the surviving photographs of Druitt - your conclusions are entirely subjective.

Second and more important, you do not take into account the techniques, long exposures and conventions of Victorian photography.

Edited to add:

"Class warfare"? What am I to make of:

Plenty of his type go through the public school system - fagged and bullied probably. It - and the 'clubable world' - is very unforgiving and can be quite vicious against their 'own' - there would be no cover ups from that strata of society particularly with respect to small fry like druitt.

All the comments come across as judgemental in a negative sense. They are all also unsupported assumptions which have to be personal to you. You do not appear to consider yourself one with Druitt's class, put it that way.

Phil H

[Lechmere]

The topics of those speeches / debates combined with the self consious posing go together. Long exposure times affected everyone. If someone wanted to convey a 'butch' approach they would pose accordingly - look at other sporting or military or explorer photos of that period. Man of action, muscular Christianity etc. That was not druitt.

His inability to knuckle down to hard work is another dignity - he was a gadabout.
And it wasn't as if he was chasing skirt was it?

Phil you totally misunderstand - I am from a similar background to druitt. Although I wouldn't class myself as effete - others might for all I know.

[Phil H]

Lechmere, there could only be one YOU!!

And it wasn't as if he was chasing skirt was it?

How do we know? He was unmarried at an age when most men would have been married or considering it. That could be interpreted many ways. But he might have kept a mistress for all we know. We simply cannot make judgements of the sort you are minded to do, on the evidence we have about MJD.

So then, we'll have to disagree then on Druitt's personality. As on most things.

Phil H

[Lechmere]

Although he was effete he was a reasonably good looking chap with some private money. Yet there isn't the slightest hint of any female interest. No crying damsels wailing at his graveside or at his inquest, dabbing the tears away from Their eyes.

He was 'sexually insane'
He was dismissed abruptly from a boys school
He liked male team sports

Take another look at those pictures

[lynn cates]

intelligent lad

Hello Phil.

"He was unmarried at an age when most men would have been married or considering it. That could be interpreted many ways."

Possibly a mark of high intelligence? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

He liked male team sports

You do like to indulge in generalisations, don't you Lechmere.

I think you just branded as "effete" all male sports players, fans and professionals. Good one!!

He was 'sexually insane'

No. Druitt is alleged to have been sexually insane. We do not know that he was.

He was dismissed abruptly from a boys school

And the reason could have been one of many non-sexual ones - embezzlement; being untruthful; violence towards boys; unprofessional conduct; neglect of duties. Those are just some. We don't know why he was sacked.

Sexual reasons are possible, of course, but why should we give those any more credence than the others. OK, MM says he was sexually insane, but he gets many facts wrong - so his information might have been garbled. Further the cause and effect link is not proven between sacking, suicide and the sexual allegations. It is no more than an assumption.

If the allegation you make is that he was a MALE teacher at a BOYS school - your generalisation rather blackens all male teachers then and now. As it was the end of term, can we be certain the dismissal was abrupt?

Phil H

[Lechmere]

It clearly was abrupt.
Being a teacher or a team player in isolation or on combination need not point to anything and I haven't suggested it does. It is tge combination with his suicide, the dismissal and reasons given, the lack of females, the cultivated effete posture, and macnaghten.
Do the maths.

If there had been no sexual angle then I doubt druitt would have entered macnaghten's radar.
Homosexuals were commonly regarded as insane women haters.
It Is the only credible explanation that fits what we know of druitt.
It may not be proven fact but it is as good as you will get now.

[Robert]

It isn't clear to me that the dismissal was abrupt.

What evidence of female interests do you think could have emerged, Lechmere? Was a "sweetheart" supposed to have gone to the inquest and publicised the details of their relationship? I don't think so.

[lynn cates]

solo

Hello Edward.

"If there had been no sexual angle then I doubt Druitt would have entered Macnaghten's radar."

Completely agree.

"It Is the only credible explanation that fits what we know of Druitt."

Frankly, I think some family member/s caught him doing the Kosminski thing. That would be enough to cause suspicion of his guilt.

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

The 'Kosminski thing' being?

Monty

[Lechmere]

I don't think eating food out of the gutter...
Or attacking his sister...
Or walking a dog unmuzzled...
Or being a nutty jew

What's left?

But lyn who caught him in the act - out of his crease?