Upon what basis did the Druitt family suspect Montague?

[Wickerman]

It's not terribly likely that Queen Victoria's eldest grandson was walking around in Spitalfields and nobody noticed him. I'd have thought Druitt would have stuck out like the proverbial sore thumb as well.

Regards, Bridewell.

Well Colin, at the risk of sounding like a Druitt'ist, I can think of at least four "persons of interest" seen in the vicinity of a couple of murder sites who did stick out (so long as you mean not looking like your typical East-end dosser).

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Could you share more?

It is a shame David Anderson has not responded to your question about the actual mental illness suffered by Ann Druitt.

Andy Spallek elsewhere has wrote that he also viewed Ann Druitt's medical papers, the conclusion arrived at was Ann Druitt may have suffered from Paranoid Schizophrenia.

Regards, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

It is a shame David Anderson has not responded to your question about the actual mental illness suffered by Ann Druitt.

Andy Spallek elsewhere has wrote that he also viewed Ann Druitt's medical papers, the conclusion arrived at was Ann Druitt may have suffered from Paranoid Schizophrenia.

Regards, Jon S.

Hmmm. That brings up a difficulty. If Druitt's mother was schizophrenic, then it is unlikely Druitt was "becoming like mother."

However, a little Googling, but sticking only to scholarly journals, shows that it is still very difficult to differentiate between early-onset Alzheimer's, and late-onset schizophrenia, though of the two, the latter is rarer, so the first is often made, tentatively, and people with late-onset schizophrenia often experience memory lapses as a prominent symptom, which is not typical with onset at age 16-24, which is more what you tend to see, so there may be a different etiology for late-onset schizophrenia, or at least a different trigger.

31 is also a little late for onset of bipolar disorder. However, it isn't late for onset of depression with psychotic episodes.

The thing about depression with psychotic episodes, and Alzheimer's disease, is that they were not in psychiatry's bag of tricks until really recently. I know that depression with psychosis was grouped in with the psychotic disorders that are generally interpreted as schizophrenia now, but it's often hard to tell, especially since age of onset is unknown.

Typical Alzheimer's would be "senile dementia," and considered a normal product of aging (although it's also a product of alcoholism). I suspect that early-onset Alzheimer's would probably have been classed as a psychosis, along with genuine schizophrenia, and tertiary syphilis. Since people with Alzheimer's are often combative, because they don't realize they aren't making sense-- they think you are someone your aren't, and ask you to do something the other person should be able to do, and get mad when you won't-- they are often difficult patients.

Tertiary syphilis is always a possibility, as well. It wouldn't have anything to do with his mother (Druitt doesn't sound like someone with congenital syphilis); but at any rate, of all the things he could have had, achizophrenia with his first episode, seems unlikely.

But, not impossible.

[Phil H]

I don't have a problem with either Macnaghten's source or his silence on it.

Both Macnaghten and Druitt's family came from the same financially prosperous professional middle class. The male members of both families would have been "clubable men" and likely to meet socially.

With his known interest in the ripper case, Macnaghten may have been told about a possible connection and pursued it, but if this was done "in his Club" or by means of an introduction by mutual friends, I am sure he would have felt bound to silence following the conventions of his day.

I also have no doubt that MM found the source convincing - we just have no information on which to make a judgement. Was there some definite fact or facts involved - he was known to have been in the East End on the nights in question; something incriminating was found in his room? Or was the family (as others have suggested in this thread) simply speculating given MJD's suicide and apparent mental state?

Either way, nothing in the papers that have survived suggest that MM followed up his lead in any official way. His "private information" remained just that. So either it was a conversation that made him think "this is the type of man who could have done it"; the information was too insubstantial or circumstantial to be able to pursue; or the physical evidence no longer existed.

I cannot believe that if (say) MM had had in his possession a bloody shirt, or a knife; letters, a diary etc etc, he would not have done something about it officially.

On Eddy/Druitt - I have never seen any evidence to suggest that Eddy had motive or opportunity to do more than be in bad company. Most of the books which point a finger at the Prince have had to manipulate the material to create a situation that allows for either a cover-up or a rather languid, apathetic royal to become a springhealed murderer. Eddy may have had issues - learning difficulties, deafness, lack of judgement, but he does not seem to have been violent.

On his brother George - was the question of his purported maltese marriage known before 1911 when he became King? He also shared a mistress with his brother in St John's Wood, as I recall.

Incidentally - the new biography of Edward VII (Eddy's father) by Jane Ridley has a couple of paragraphs on the Ripper issue - very sensible ones too.

Phil H

Thus I conclude, it was a "view" and no more.

[Robert]

If Macnaghten possessed any kind of firm evidence within a few years of the murders, it would have been highly irresponsible of him if he failed to leave a record of it. Suppose Macnaghten was killed by a bus. In that eventuality the police might subsequently have charged an innocent, with Macnaghten's evidence lost for ever.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Phil H,

George's secret Catholic wedding on Malta was first known about in 1893, shortly after he married his late brother's fiancee.

His secret bride eventually moved to South Kensington with their three children.

If you're interested in royal dalliances there's an article in Rip 129 about PAV and his alleged affair with Lydia Manton.

Regards,

Simon

[caz]

If Macnaghten possessed any kind of firm evidence within a few years of the murders, it would have been highly irresponsible of him if he failed to leave a record of it. Suppose Macnaghten was killed by a bus. In that eventuality the police might subsequently have charged an innocent, with Macnaghten's evidence lost for ever.

I agree entirely, Robert. At the very least, such evidence could and arguably should be left with a solicitor to be opened in the event of the death of the person in possession.

But to be fair, Macnaghten did make it clear that there was 'no shadow of proof' against anyone and it was merely his conjecture that Druitt did it, based on his alleged sexual insanity and the alleged suspicions of his own family. I don't think he could have meant that there was no longer any shadow of proof since he had destroyed all his private information, because how could he have known that someone else did not still possess the same information, from the same or different sources?

It might have been better not to name Druitt, or to mention having destroyed private information, if it really didn't contain even the shadow of proof against that unhappy man. Why did Macnaghten add to the ripper mystery with another one, which by his own hand was destined to remain in limbo, never likely to be resolved?

Love,

Caz
X

[Robert]

Hi Caz

I'm afraid that if you asked any of the policemen involved in the case to write a simple sentence such as "The cat sat on the mat," you'd have got a different version each time, ranging from "The cat sat on a mat" (but maybe not on the mat in question) to "The cat shat on the mat" (must have been upset tummy) to "The cat sat on the mast" (new member of crew in crow's nest), not to mention those who would have transformed the cat into a dog.

[lynn cates]

But me name's not Clement.

Hello Robert. Ah! You're a naughty boy Clement!

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

Please don't use satire on me, Dinsdale!

[lynn cates]

vicious

Hello Robert. Thanks.

You would prefer puns, parody or pathos then? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hmmm. That brings up a difficulty. If Druitt's mother was schizophrenic, then it is unlikely Druitt was "becoming like mother."

To who?
This was not a medical diagnosis (which is what I think you are referring to), it was just Druitt's own opinion, and his opinion frightened him.

Insanity (to whatever degree) ran in the family. This is not like the Kosminski 'one-off', the Druitt's had a proven track record of suicide.

It would have been beneficial if Andy had taken Ann Druitt's notes for professional analysis, he does not say who's opinion it was that deduced paranoid schizophrenia from Ann Druitt's medical papers.

Lets hope David Anderson passed by again...

Regards, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

If Macnaghten possessed any kind of firm evidence within a few years of the murders, it would have been highly irresponsible of him if he failed to leave a record of it. Suppose Macnaghten was killed by a bus. In that eventuality the police might subsequently have charged an innocent, with Macnaghten's evidence lost for ever.

This is an excellent point, although, MacNaughton at least wasn't a sole witness. There was whoever his informant was. And, then, he did eventually name Druitt.

Of course, something that sometimes happens with highly publicized cases like these is a rush to judgment, and a jury who will convict anyone, just to have the case closed, and also fear of being known as "the jury who freed the Jack the Ripper." Just as an example, the members of the jury who exonerated Casey Anthony got threatening calls, and harassment in public, and they really did the best they could, if you ask me-- it was the DA who screwed up by overcharging Anthony (with first degree murder, all the elements of which couldn't be proved, instead of manslaughter), an that was probably due to public pressure as well.

This was not a medical diagnosis [Druitt "becoming like mother"]... it was just Druitt's own opinion, and his opinion frightened him.

Point taken; however, I'm still really curious to know why Druitt thought he was "becoming like mother." Bouts of melancholia, where he didn't get out of bed all day? Finding himself in another part of town, and not remembering how he got there?

The first one is a symptom of fairly common (medically speaking) clinical depression.

The second one is something that can happen to people in the beginning of early-onset Alzheimer's-- or normal-onset too, but it's something you expect, because "senile dementia" isn't all that rare, and early-onset Alzheimer's is.

Now, people with early-onset Alzheimer's do not suddenly become homicidal when they were not before, but just imagine if Druitt confided in someone that he had lapses of memory, where he found himself some place, and didn't remember how he'd gotten there, or even deciding to go there. Then, he commits suicide, and it coincides with the murders ending.

I'm not asserting that is what happened; I'm just saying that it is a plausible scenario for a remark that in retrospect appears to mean something that it doesn't, just because of coincidental events. This is why I'd love to know what exactly caused Druitt so much worry that he killed himself. If we can't know, then having a better idea of his mother's symptoms would be something.

[Phil H]

Point taken; however, I'm still really curious to know why Druitt thought he was "becoming like mother." Bouts of melancholia, where he didn't get out of bed all day?

But if his "sacking" from the school and his mental state are linked he might really have been concerned.

Say his mental state had led to outbursts of violent temper, he had struck (or almost struck) a boy, or he had - more likely in my view - begun seriously to neglect his duties (as a result of apathy or lethargy) then surely he might well have thought he was at the beginning of a downward spiral, especially if he recalled seeing similar behaviour in his mother.

Phil H

[Robert]

Monty says "since Friday." This might refer to a moment of crystallisation after a period of nagging worry, but my bet is that something in particular happened on a Friday, some kind of "clincher." Maybe he did something violent. Maybe a doctor gave him bad news about his mental condition. Maybe it was the day he was dismissed from the school. Perhaps Valentine hired staff by the term, and told Monty at the end of term that he wouldn't be re-engaging him. In that case the "serious trouble" might have simply referred to a generally low level of performance by Monty throughout the whole term, rather than to one cataclysmic event. But it might have come as a shock to Monty and tipped him over the edge.