Upon what basis did the Druitt family suspect Montague?

[BucksFizzMurder]

It would be interesting to see what level of 'family' the information came from. Could this be the husband of a second cousin, etc.? It could've come from any busybody or spiteful person who was on the far outer circles, as likely as from someone close. (Or was this person ever named?)

[David Andersen]

Hi DD
The only thing I can think of:

he had mental problems, was a sexual deviant (in their minds), was affected by his mothers suicide, and had been fired from his job (perhaps related to one of the above).

But to be honest, I don't beleive they would go to the police. It is more likely i think that mac heard something second hand about the the family thinking he was the murderer. i also do not really put much importance on the MM. IMHO it reads more like someone grasping at straws and trying to have at least some kind of answer for superiors/someone as opposed to saying "I have no idea-the killer completely beat us."

Montague was not affected by his Mothers suicide. She did not commit suicide and she died some time after Montague at the Manor House Asylum in Chiswick close to where Montagues body was found.

[David Andersen]

An interesting point - but I'm suddenly wondering about this third party and his/her interest in informing MM about the Druitt family's antics. It's even possible this third party may have had an actual connection to the real Ripper, and decided to spread a "little white lie" that would push police attention away from the real Ripper.

We do know the type of illness which afflicted Montagues Mother Ann. I have a copy of her case notes as compiled by Dr Tuke at the Manor House asylum where she died. She was sent there from Dr Gasquets asylum near Brighton. In a covering letter he states that she refused food on the ground that she had no throatpipe!!
The Brothers Tuke were known to the Druitt family. Montague was at Oxford with them, at the same time, and the Tukes were very keen cricketers.
Ann was moved to Chiswick on the instructions of William Druitt who, in my opinion, was the informant re the familys concerns.

[Roy Corduroy]

We do know the type of illness which afflicted Montagues Mother Ann. I have a copy of her case notes as compiled by Dr Tuke at the Manor House asylum where she died. She was sent there from Dr Gasquets asylum near Brighton.

Dr Gasquet practiced at St George's Retreat

The Brothers Tuke were known to the Druitt family. Montague was at Oxford with them, at the same time, and the Tukes were very keen cricketers. Ann was moved to Chiswick on the instructions of William Druitt who, in my opinion, was the informant re the familys concerns.

Thank you David,

Roy

[RavenDarkendale]

Limehouse is correct, MM doesn't name the family as the source of information, he merely states that he has no doubt they believe MJD to be JtR. As to anything they might (and recall this is maybe, not fact) have seen or heard to arouse their suspicions, the possibilities are nigh endless: Bloody clothes, change of attitude, mood swings, keeping odd hours, things muttered in fitful sleep, finding him with a sharp knife in hand, furtive movements, etc.

God Bless

Darkendale

[RivkahChaya]

We do know the type of illness which afflicted Montagues Mother Ann. I have a copy of her case notes as compiled by Dr Tuke at the Manor House asylum where she died. She was sent there from Dr Gasquets asylum near Brighton. In a covering letter he states that she refused food on the ground that she had no throatpipe!!

Could you share more? I can think or several heritable, degenerative diseases that begin in one's late 30s-early 40s, start small, with diminished impulse control, and almost imperceptible disruption of fine motor skills, that only the person, and maybe a spouse might notice, but then within a few years, follow a very predictable, very ugly, and unstoppable progress to both dementia, and loss of things like bowel and bladder control. There are still no good treatments for most of them now, just better diagnoses, and many people still choose suicide at a certain point.

I'm on record as being against attempts to sort of "back-diagnose" historical people, but in the case where we can be sure something was wrong, and there's a real issue to consider, in this case, did she appear to have something with a genetic factor, I'm not against saying what the likelihood is, one way or another, since it must be one or the other.

Personally - I think we have to look more closely at what MM actually wrote :

........ from private information I have little doubt but that his own family believed him to have been the murderer. .....

Firstly the information given to him was from a private source (in confidence?) but does it say it came from thje family? MM seems to be implying that someone gave him information suggesting the family suspected MJD of being the ripper.... For example - at what point did the family suspect he may have been the murderer? Before or after his suicide?

That's a really good point; can you imagine the prickles down the neck if you were a close relative, and it dawned on you, some time maybe mid-February, that there hadn't been another Ripper murder in a long time, and you look at the newspaper every day, almost hoping there will be one, because that would mean....

You confide in someone "I hope it's just a coincidence that the murders stopped when Montie died," and that person turns it into "His family suspected he was the murderer."

One other thing about his family, though: sometimes your family isn't entirely interested in your good name. Without going into detail, my mother (who is brilliant, and speaks eight languages, but when she's crazy, she's really, really crazy), who still holds childhood grudges against her older siblings, seemed downright disappointed that her brother was not arrested when someone in her sister-in-law's family was the victim of a crime of violence, and actually said "Now we have to invite him to your brother's bar mitzvah."

So, that in mind, is it possible that there was one person in Druitt's family with some kind of grudge against him?

the unfortunate Salem witches...but they are now considered innocent.

Considered? They were never anything but innocent, and everybody knows it. None of them were even guilty of attempting to practice witchcraft, which is to say, they didn't even actually break any of the laws of their Puritan colony as they stood. The only person who might possibly have broken a law was the servant of Samuel Parris, Tituba, in describing some non-Christian rituals practiced in Barbados, to Betty Parris and Abigail Parris. But Tituba was not tried or executed.

Eight years after the conclusion of the trials, one of the judges woke up, and thought "What did I do?" and made a public apology. In 1957, most of the accused witches were exonerated by Massachusetts legislation.

[RavenDarkendale]

@ RivkahChaya

Good point on how an innocent statement by MJD's family could be twisted into something condemning their own.

This stuff happens all the time. Someone makes a comment, jokingly, like "You know, Bob resembles that police sketch in the paper!" Most laugh and go on, but someone begins to wonder "What if?" even though they do not believe it possible. But they mention to a third party that "That sketch matches a lot of people. I heard Bob's sister saying it even looked like him!"

Eventually. Bob will be in for questioning and the person reporting the tip will say that even Bob's family are suspicious of him.

Perhaps this scenario is what lead to MM's "private information" of MJD's family's suspicions.

God Bless

Darkendale

[Phil H]

I have never been able to pin down what or when the druitt family believed anything.

Was it the whole family or just some members?

Did they think it could be MJD before MJK's death, or only after his body was found?

Why did they think it?

Good post, Dale.

Phil H

[RivkahChaya]

@ RivkahChaya

Good point on how an innocent statement by MJD's family could be twisted into something condemning their own.

This stuff happens all the time. Someone makes a comment, jokingly, like "You know, Bob resembles that police sketch in the paper!" Most laugh and go on, but someone begins to wonder "What if?" even though they do not believe it possible. But they mention to a third party that "That sketch matches a lot of people. I heard Bob's sister saying it even looked like him!"

Eventually. Bob will be in for questioning and the person reporting the tip will say that even Bob's family are suspicious of him.

I saw an interview on TV where an innocent guy was arrested because he looked like a bank robber caught on videotape, and darned if he didn't look just like the picture on the videotape. The interviewer asked the guy his own opinion, and he said "Yeah, I think it looks like me." Fortunately, he had a really good alibi, so while he did get booked, and had to spend several hours at the police station, he never was actually arraigned, or anything.

Me, I always wondered if the whole "Prince Eddy" theory got started because Prince Eddy kind of looks like Druitt in a lot of the pictures we have of both of them. I don't know whether they resembled each other in life or not.

Also, FWIW, Druitt, in the B&W photos, is sort of dark-complexioned, and dark-haired. That's one of the reasons I'd love to pin down what people mean when they say some of the people seen with victims "look Jewish." Do they just mean darker than they typical Englishman, or do they mean peyos, full beard, yarmulke, and E. European overcoat?

Also, I don't know whether the pictures we have of Druitt just happen to be poorly lit. Maybe he was pale and blue-eyed.

[Wickerman]

Also, FWIW, Druitt, in the B&W photos, is sort of dark-complexioned, and dark-haired. That's one of the reasons I'd love to pin down what people mean when they say some of the people seen with victims "look Jewish." Do they just mean darker than they typical Englishman, or do they mean peyos, full beard, yarmulke, and E. European overcoat?

Also, I don't know whether the pictures we have of Druitt just happen to be poorly lit. Maybe he was pale and blue-eyed.

Also, for what its worth, Druitt is one of those suspects, arguably the original suspect, who has never been ruled out. And, significantly, for which there does not exist any rational objections.

Considering Druitt appears to have suffered from some mental illness, which is known to have run in the family over several generations, why so much attention is payed to the comparatively isolated instance of Kosminski's mental illness when we have an arguably better candidate of hereditary mental illness in Druitt, is somewhat puzzling.

Regards, Jon S.

[Phil H]

Me, I always wondered if the whole "Prince Eddy" theory got started because Prince Eddy kind of looks like Druitt in a lot of the pictures we have of both of them. I don't know whether they resembled each other in life or not.


This idea came up a few months back. as i said then. watever resemblance might be suggested by surviving black and white photographs, might have been none existent in life. It would depend on hair colour, complexion, height, mannerisms, stance etc etc.

I see this as a red-herring.

Phil H

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

The Prince Eddy theory probably had its genesis in the story of his brother, Prince George, who, whilst on Malta prior to his marriage to Princess Mary of Teck, was rumoured to have married the Roman Catholic daughter of a naval officer.

Regards,

Simon

[Bridewell]

It's not terribly likely that Queen Victoria's eldest grandson was walking around in Spitalfields and nobody noticed him. I'd have thought Druitt would have stuck out like the proverbial sore thumb as well.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Private Information

Upon what basis did the Druitt family suspect Montague?

Upon what basis did MacNaghten think that the Druitt family did suspect him?

He names a suspect but doesn't provide any evidence to justify doing so, beyond a claim that he has 'private information'. What was the point? He implies that the source is a family member or someone close to the family, but without naming that person. I wonder why. Perhaps because, if he names an individual, that individual can deny ever having spoken to him. If he doesn't name an individual there can be no such denial. There used to be a specific disciplinary offence in the police service of "idling and gossiping". It existed for a reason - because idling & gossiping were something which police officers were prone to.

Regards, Bridewell.

[RivkahChaya]

Me, I always wondered if the whole "Prince Eddy" theory got started because Prince Eddy kind of looks like Druitt in a lot of the pictures we have of both of them. I don't know whether they resembled each other in life or not.

This idea came up a few months back. as i said then. watever resemblance might be suggested by surviving black and white photographs, might have been none existent in life. It would depend on hair colour, complexion, height, mannerisms, stance etc etc.

I see this as a red-herring.

Phil H

Phil, my point was sort of, coming from the perspective that the Prince Eddy story is entirely fiction, that the genesis of it, or at least a contributing factor may have been one of the fabricators looking at a photo of Druitt, and thinking it looked like Prince Eddy, then thinking that would make a pretty juicy story.

So, actual resemblance in life is irrelevant. I'm not talking about a mistaken identification-- that while Druitt was out stalking women, someone mistook him for the prince-- I'm talking about deliberate fiction based on someone else thinking there was a resemblance.

Upon what basis did MacNaghten think that the Druitt family did suspect him?

He names a suspect but doesn't provide any evidence to justify doing so, beyond a claim that he has 'private information'. What was the point? He implies that the source is a family member or someone close to the family, but without naming that person.

If you read a lot on Urban legends, you see "FOAF" a lot. It stands for "friend of a friend," and it's the anonymous source people give when telling a story the teller accepts as true, but probably isn't. "It happened to a friend of a friend," or, my "aunt's hair stylist," or, "my nanny's fiance's mother."

Of course, there is one other possibility, although I don't know enough about Scotland Yard at the time. I do know that in the US today, police have confidential informants, who are people who have traded not being arrested for petty crimes for information leading to arrests in much more important crimes. Generally a CI is guilty of a so-called "victimless crime," like prostitution, as an adult, end drug use (not dealing, just buying and using), or small stakes gambling.

I could imagine a scenario where the information came from a criminal informant, and since Druitt was dead, there was no reason to act on it. It seems unlikely, though, because it would mean that Druitt's family had criminal ties. I'd be more likely to think "criminal informant," if the part about "his family believed" had been left out, and MacNaughten simply said he had "private information" regarding Druitt's guilt.

On the balance, I'm going with FOAF, although I'm willing to believe that MacNaughten really did hear some sort of gossip or Urban legend somewhere, rather than that he just made it up to support the idea that the guy fished out of the Thames was JTR.

We may have a sort of "citogenesis," though. A guy gets fished out of the Thames, and some policeman murmurs, "You don't suppose that's why the murders stopped?" someone hears, and the rumor works it's way around, gaining strength and detail, until someone hoping to collect a reward, or needing to trade information, presents detailed story to the police.

I actually know of a case where something like that happened. It ended in a section of river getting drained, looking for a body, that turned up two years, and two cities away. A very early, discarded police theory on a woman's disappearance, continued to circulate in the public, until a year later, someone confessed to being an accomplice to the scenario in the theory, to the dual purpose of swapping information for a plea bargain in another crime, an accusing someone she had a grudge against of being the primary perpetrator. It was very strange. She also had bipolar disorder, IIRC, and was off meds while in jail, because she neglected to tell the police she had meds.

The things was, the police tip-line (a phone call in thing in the US) on the case had been receiving calls about the body having been dumped in the river, with the tip gaining details over several months, and it was being reported by a wide variety of callers. They were just people who wanted to be helpful. They heard the story, and thought, even if it wasn't true, it was better to call the tip-line than not.