Hutchinson's Description

[caz]

Hi All,

Since Monty would not appear to have been a dead ringer for either Hutch's flashy, fur-trimmed Del Boy or Mrs Cox's red-whiskered, blotchy beer drinker, one wonders where and what time of night our suicidal cricketer could have picked up with Mary, pretending to have a bit of rough in mind and meaning to do a lot of ripping. I imagine he would have dressed down for the job, but I don't see him breaking into that hovel after Blotchy's departure and hoping for the best. And yet nobody seems to have seen Mary with anyone between the (alleged) Cox and Hutch sightings.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jonathan H]

You raise an excellent point Caz.

Macnaghten, who coined the 'canonical five', believed that Kelly, not Coles two years later, was the final Ripper victim of the homicidal sex fiend Montie Druitt.

Since this final and most appalling murder/mutilation was committed in the victim's hovel, then he must have picked her up on the street and been escorted back to her place.

We have the witness Hutchinson who claimed to see such a client who spent a long time in the room with Mary Kelly -- and this man essentially does not resemble Druitt [I don't buy the idea that the Gentile/Anglican Druitt in his high school photos looks classically Semitic].

I think that if Druitt really was the murderer then witnesses must have their times mistaken [or are telling tales] and that Kelly went out again, or something like that.

As for the other witnesses to other victims, they were often just too far removed from the timing of the murders to have reliably seen the killer -- except perhaps Lawende as the timing is so tight if the beat cop's account is correct.

Interestingly Schwartz's story is significantly different between the police version and the tabloid one -- who apparently interviewed him with an interpreter.

In the first he tells a dream-like story about being melodramatically chased by a giant with a pipe, which is arguably a way of explaining away his less than brave behavior towards a woman being assaulted right in front of him.

His story, for the cops and coroner, is his excuse.

In the other, I think more realistic version, Schwartz fled at the sight of another man with arguably Gentile features who was carrying a knife and perhaps coming to the rescue of Stride against the shorter, stouter, bruiser; 'shouting out some kind of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forwards as if to attack the intruder'.

Or, at least, so 'The Star' reported.

If true, despite the tabloid source by definition being less reliable than the police version, then this could be Druitt, or at least the man who killed Eddowes a little while later, cleverly posing as a savior before turning on the poor woman. This would bring Lawende's 'Jack the Sailor' into better alignment with a figure seen near the previous victim on the same night: a taller, slimmer, 'red' moustachioed fellow brandishing a knife.

Is this Druitt, in prole disguise, chivalrously coming to the rescue of a prostitute, scaring away the client and the witness, and then blitz-killing her himself -- before being disturbed by the man with the horse and cart?

[Abby Normal]

You raise an excellent point Caz.

Macnaghten, who coined the 'canonical five', believed that Kelly, not Coles two years later, was the final Ripper victim of the homicidal sex fiend Montie Druitt.

Since this final and most appalling murder/mutilation was committed in the victim's hovel, then he must have picked her up on the street and been escorted back to her place.

We have the witness Hutchinson who claimed to see such a client who spent a long time in the room with Mary Kelly -- and this man essentially does not resemble Druitt [I don't buy the idea that the Gentile/Anglican Druitt in his high school photos looks classically Semitic].

I think that if Druitt really was the murderer then witnesses must have their times mistaken [or are telling tales] and that Kelly went out again, or something like that.

As for the other witnesses to other victims, they were often just too far removed from the timing of the murders to have reliably seen the killer -- except perhaps Lawende as the timing is so tight if the beat cop's account is correct.

Interestingly Schwartz's story is significantly different between the police version and the tabloid one -- who apparently interviewed him with an interpreter.

In the first he tells a dream-like story about being melodramatically chased by a giant with a pipe, which is arguably a way of explaining away his less than brave behavior towards a woman being assaulted right in front of him.

His story, for the cops and coroner, is his excuse.

In the other, I think more realistic version, Schwartz fled at the sight of another man with arguably Gentile features who was carrying a knife and perhaps coming to the rescue of Stride against the shorter, stouter, bruiser; 'shouting out some kind of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forwards as if to attack the intruder'.

Or, at least, so 'The Star' reported.

If true, despite the tabloid source by definition being less reliable than the police version, then this could be Druitt, or at least the man who killed Eddowes a little while later, cleverly posing as a savior before turning on the poor woman. This would bring Lawende's 'Jack the Sailor' into better alignment with a figure seen near the previous victim on the same night: a taller, slimmer, 'red' moustachioed fellow brandishing a knife.

Is this Druitt, in prole disguise, chivalrously coming to the rescue of a prostitute, scaring away the client and the witness, and then blitz-killing her himself -- before being disturbed by the man with the horse and cart?

Hi JH
I don't think JtR would have risked confronting a large, violent man. i have always suspected that Israel Scwartz's pipeman was an invention to help explain away his less than brave actions.

[Marc]

Hutchinson claimed to have overheard Kelly telling her pick-up that she'd lost her handkerchief, Marc,

True Gary, I had forgotten this one.

he was seemingly the only person in the East End who believed Mary Kelly to have been sober

Love is blind ?
I second your comment

[caz]

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for the kind comment.

We have the witness Hutchinson who claimed to see such a client who spent a long time in the room with Mary Kelly -- and this man essentially does not resemble Druitt [I don't buy the idea that the Gentile/Anglican Druitt in his high school photos looks classically Semitic].

Agreed - although the main reason I don't buy Hutch's suspect resembling Druitt is that I can't believe our Monty would have been seen dead in the kind of showy nouveau riche get-up described. I hope I won't offend anyone by saying that Mr Astrakhan strikes me as far more your Alan Sugar-meets-East End spiv than your upper-middle public school slummer.

While I find the wealth of detail Hutch came up with a cause for concern (considering he was not concerned enough to make sure Mary was safe with her "Flash Harry" when he finally left the court), I don't find the description itself all that ridiculous, unlike the majority it seems. It was at first glance good enough for Abberline, and I have seen no evidence that he ever fell heavily under the 'Jewish fiend' spell.

So there must have been flashy characters resembling Mr A to be seen on the main thoroughfares like Commercial Street, where the trams would soon be running. Anyone in work could deck themselves out quite cheaply in second-hand 'posh' clobber and fake jewellery from the Jewish dealers in "o' clo" in Petticoat Lane - if they wanted to appear a cut above and could handle themselves with potential muggers.

But I don't see anyone who actually was a cut above choosing to dress this way to appear a cut below. I don't doubt that Mary Kelly would have been as happy to take a drink off a Flash Harry type as anyone else, but if Druitt wanted to appear like a safe bet to her, I could see him going 'shabby genteel'.

Love,

Caz
X

[harry]

There is no reason why she must have been picked up on the street(Jonathan) because she was found dead in her room.Why couldn't the killer have made his entrance some other way?

If Hutchinson is to be believed,then seemingly the evidence of Cox can be excluded.There is too much of a difference for both to have been the same person.

What Hutchinson's statement does is cast suspicion at a particular ethnic part of the population,and away from what must have been a very small group,of which Hutchinson was one,who might have been familiar enough with her and her situation,to affect entry to her room in some manner other than in her company.

The ethnic bias seems to have followed to Macnaghten's successer,who is stated to have believed Dr Pedenchenko to be the ripper.Although it was 25 years(1913) before that assistant commisioner took office,one might presume it was the original files that would be at his disposal.It does seem that perhaps Hutchinson was not completely discounted,and that his story was part of the reason why the investigation was perhaps targeted at the wrong section of the community.Three assistant commisioners,three different points of view,and in my opinion all wrong.

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

There is no reason why she must have been picked up on the street(Jonathan) because she was found dead in her room.Why couldn't the killer have made his entrance some other way?

I believe that the killer let himself in to the room by reaching through the window to unfasten the door (as he could have observed Mary herself doing).

If Hutchinson is to be believed,then seemingly the evidence of Cox can be excluded.There is too much of a difference for both to have been the same person.

Cox was talking about Blotchy. Sarah Lewis gave a description matching Hutchinson, of a man seen later on hanging about in the court. Her witness statement is supported by Hutchinson's own witness statement.

What Hutchinson's statement does is cast suspicion at a particular ethnic part of the population,and away from what must have been a very small group,of which Hutchinson was one,who might have been familiar enough with her and her situation,to affect entry to her room in some manner other than in her company.

If Hutchinson's witness statement is false, then I contend that he particularly wanted to cast suspicion on a 'particular part of the ethnic population' and away from himself. Infact I believe that ALL the canonical murders intended to point the finger at that part of the 'ethnic population'.

[GregBaron]

That's a fake mustache...

Sorry all but I just went to research more about MJD and that part of the site was down so I apologize in advance if any of this is old hat that I missed....

1) Wasn't it rumored that Druitt was a homosexual? If so, homosexual serial killers don't kill women........especially in vile sexual lust murders...
2) If he was a homosexual couldn't this explain nightly sojourns which might have aroused family suspicion but were simply fishing expeditions for boys...?
3) Might not the guilt of homosexual activity have driven him to suicide as the closet was still firmly slammed shut at this time....
4) The 'Gentile Sailor' would seem a contrived outfit for MJD and the mustache was described as fair.......certainly not a match for the very dark features of Druitt.....unless he dyed it or used a fake?
5) How might Druitt travel from Blackheath to Whitechapel? A tram? The train? How far is it?
6) Where might MJD have become dexterous with a knife?

Just some things that occurred to me as I trolled these Druitt threads....

Greg

[TomTomKent]

The rumour of homosexuality comes from his being described as (I think) a "sexual deviant". It has been assumed that homosexuality is an easy fit with the scandal that saw him fired from the school. However, it is possible that a great many things may have been considered "deviant" at the time.