Druitt's movements around murder dates

[aspallek]

A thread to discuss Druitt's known movements around the murder dates and/or potential alibis.

[aspallek]

Let us begin with the information I posted several times on the old boards:

1. Polly Nichols: Murdered early morning 31 August. Druitt's next known appearance is 1 September playing cricket in Dorset. This gives Druitt approximately 30 hours to complete a rail journey of perhaps 3 hours.

2. Ann Chapman: Murdered early morning 8 September. Druitt's next known appearance is later that morning playing cricket in Blackheath. Phil Sugden indicates this match began at 11:30. The rail journey to Blackheath would have been about 30 minutes. Even allowing time for Druitt to make his way to Cannon Street Station, he has more than 4 hours to spare.

3. Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes: Eddowes murdered before 2 AM on 30 September. Cricketing season had ended for most club's (including Druitt's regular club) by this day. A few fixtures were held on 30 September and one or two "make-up" fixtures shortly afterward but Druitt is not known to have participated in these. Druitt's next appearance: According to Leighton, Druitt appeared in court in the West Country (probably meaning Dorset or Hampshire) on 1 October. Leighton does not cite any source but even if it is so, Druitt has well over 30 hours to complete this rail journey of about 3 hours.

4. Mary Kelly: Murdered on 9 November, probably early morning. There are no known movements of Druitt within the following few days.

I will follow with a separate post concerning Druitt's cricketing in August 1888.

[aspallek]

A word on Druitt's cricketing in August 1888:

I will readily admit that Druitt has what is very close to an alibi for the Tabram murder. However, I do not consider it likely that this is a Ripper murder.

Tabram was murdered on 7 August. Druitt played at Bournemouth on 3-4 August and then again on 10-11 August. These were consecutive weekends. While it is certainly possible that Druitt could return to London during this period as the Courts were in session there, it is more logical to assume that he spent that week in Dorset, either with his brother William in Bournemouth or at the family home, Westfield House, in Wimborne Minster.

We know that Montague Druitt played in Dorset on 1 September. The question is whether Druitt spent the rest of August in Dorset or returned to London to attend to his legal work there. School was not in session. Leighton wrongly makes the assertion that Montague Druitt played cricket for the Bournemouth team in Salisbury on August 22. Sugden is much more wise in admitting that we do not know who this "Druitt" is (no first initial is given in the report). It is more likely that this was Montague's brother William, who lived in Bournemouth and who is known to have played for the Bournemouth club. There is also an "A. Druitt" (perhaps Montague's brother Arthur, who was also a cricketer) who played alongside Montague in Bournemouth. A little digging reveals that Montague's cousin, the Rev. Charles Druitt, was rector of a parish just on the edge of Salisbury at that time and that he was certainly present there in September. It is possible that it was Charles who played at Salisbury that day. Sorry to be so hard on Leighton, who gives us valuable information on Montague Druitt in his book, but this is why we must be cautious when making "factual" statements that are actually assumptions! Leighton's error here casts great doubt on his claim that Druitt was in the West Country on 1 October (see post above).

Leighton makes one further statement that must be verified. He states that Montague played in another fixture at Kingston Park CC. However, William also played for Kingston Park. Leighton does not indicate on which date this fixture was held.

Now, just a note about Philip Hutchinson's assertion that there is new evidence that Montague Druitt was away from London playing cricket at the time most of the murders took place. I'm really not trying to argue with Phil but I am just trying to understand the nature of his assertion. The Blackheath club played its final match on 8 September. Cricket season seems to have been concluded by the end of September, with a relative few fixtures being held as late as 30 September. Maybe I'm wrong about this but that is the impression I get from scanning the newspapers. It seems unlikely that Montague Druitt would have played in one of the few fixtures held that day. Thus, how Montague could be away from London playing cricket when most of the murders were committed seems impossible to me.

It seem likely that he was away when Tabram was killed but the general consensus is that this was not a Ripper murder. I will grant that he might have been away when Nichols was murdered but as yet there is no evidence of that. But even if Phil brings forth evidence that Druitt was away on 31 August, how is this when most of the murders took place? Please, Phil, give us more information.

[Sam Flynn]

2. Ann Chapman: Murdered early morning 8 September. Druitt's next known appearance is later that morning playing cricket in Blackheath. Phil Sugden indicates this match began at 11:30. The rail journey to Blackheath would have been about 30 minutes. Even allowing time for Druitt to make his way to Cannon Street Station, he has more than 4 hours to spare.

Purely out of interest, Andy, do we know what the Cannon Street/Blackheath train departure times on a Saturday morning were back then?

On another topic, whilst the cricket match may have started at 11:30 it's likely that the teams would have assembled sooner than that. Cricket being something of a "social" sport, there may even have been a preliminary round of tea, cakes and a chat before the players strolled out onto the green. With that in mind, I shouldn't be surprised if Druitt's theoretical 4 hours' leeway was in fact 3 hours or less.

[aspallek]

Yes, Sam, we do have that information. Of course, Druitt could have made an excuse as to why he might have been late for the tea and crumpets but I won't quibble with you. This is the tightest window Druitt had, at least that we know of, and I suppose it might have been as little as three hours though I think it was a bit more.

Courtesy of Neil Rhind, who provided me with a period newspaper listing the January 1889 train times between Blackheath and London and vice versa:

I give the times from Cannon Street because that was the nearer station to the murder site. These trains did operate on Saturdays.

There were departures at 0605, 0730, 0749, 0820, 0840, 0920, 0940, and so on. No arrival times are given. Today it's about a 10-15 run so I doubt it would have been more than 30 minutes then. It seems he could have caught the 0730 or the 0749, either of which would have got him to Blackheath before 0830.

[Ben]

It seem likely that he was away when Tabram was killed but the general consensus is that this was not a Ripper murder.

Ooh, I dunno about that, Andy.

Opinion seems to be pretty evenly divided on that score, from what I've seen. Certainly, there were more contemporary police officials including her than excluding her, and the same appears to be true of modern criminologists.

Whenever Druitt crops up on the record between 3rd August and 1st September, he can only be placed in Dorset, a time period which meshes up extremely well with a standard public school holiday. The parsimonious explanation, surely, is that he can be placed in that county and nowhere else because that was where he was spending his time off school? Unless, of course, some especially pressing legal matters sent him Capitol-wards.

[aspallek]

Ben,

I disagree on both counts. While opinion is divided on Tabram, the consensus is still that she was not a Ripper victim. But suffice it to say that my suspicion of Druitt as the killer is predicated upon Tabram not being a victim. I readily admit that.

With regard to the whole of August, I can neither agree with you on that one. His being in Dorset on consecutive August weekends does suggest that he spend the interim there. However, his appearance there at the beginning of August and the beginning of September does not suggest the he spend the entire month in Dorset. The time period is too great and the distance is too small. Remember tat he made a quick visit to brother William in Wimbourne at the end of October. Now, if it can be shown that Montague was in Dorset around 22 August then the presumption that he spent the whole month in Dorset becomes more likely, though still not a certain alibi.

Remember that in this thread I am talking about alibis and whether Druitt should be eliminated from consideration as a suspect and not the likelihood that the suspect Druitt committed the murders.

[Ben]

Hi Andy,

While opinion is divided on Tabram, the consensus is still that she was not a Ripper victim.

Not trying to be antagonsitic here, but how do you know? At the time of the murders the police consensus said the opposite, so I'm not really sure how this changed or why.

On the subject of Druitt's movements in August and September, the issue is not so much one of time and distance, but rather the fact that he can only be placed in Dorset whenever he shows up on the record between early August and September, which is fairly often considering that we're dealing with events that occured 119 years ago. I'm not trying to establish a certain alibi, but rather outline what I believe to be the simpler explanation that he can placed there and nowhere else between those dates because he was there and nowhere else. The fact that this "entire month" is consistent with a private school holiday is also pretty telling, to my mind. He could have returned to London between those dates, just as he could have headed back between cricket in Dorset on 3/4th of August and cricket in Dorset on the 10/11th August, but is it likely that he did? I'd have to say no, on both counts.

Best regards,
Ben

[Mr Poster]

Hi ho

I would imagine the "new" alibi is based on something more than just the information we currently have as to Druitt. Otherwise it wouldnt be "new"? I freely admit I had not heard that the alibi was cricket based and had assumed it could have been in relation to something else.

At any rate, assuming Druitt knew in advance when his cricketing forays would be.....was it not a bit gormless to indulge in his exploits in London so shortly before his crickettiing?

Plus.....does cricketing not need practice of some sort? Would it not be logical that his day prior too the matches would have included some light limbering up withh the team or whatever?

Or do cricket players only play in matches and not practice at all with the team?

I thought they ate sandwiches together and had meetings and the like?

Perhaps its records of these that constitute the new alibi?

It is a pity that the holders of this information would not come forward and clarify a bit although I understand their desire to present it without the chance of being pipped to the post.
P

[aspallek]

It is a pity that the holders of this information would not come forward and clarify a bit although I understand their desire to present it without the chance of being pipped to the post.
P

I want Phil to know that I didn't say that and I am not scolding him for not bringing the information forward right now. It's just that I would like to know what the information consists of so that I will know whether to go on researching Druitt or not.

Ben,

There is not nearly enough of a "record" of Druitt's whereabouts to base your assumption on. If he was in Dorset the whole of August, why doesn't he show up in other cricket fixtures, say between 11 August and 1 September? We simply don't know where he was then. Look, I was in London in March 2006 and in March 2007. From this evidence would you assume I spent the whole year there?

[Mr Poster]

hi ho

I want Phil to know that I didn't say that

I dont see the problem with saying it. And no one is scolding anyone.

The person who apparently has the information is well regarded and not known as hysterical so just saying "Yes, an alibi exists, its bulletproof and people still working on Druitt could save themselves some work. I will present the alibi when I have typed it up and can present it in a form appropriate to its importance".


Thats all that is required. IF the alibi is not bulletproof then DRuitt can still remainn as a fairly implausible suspect as he has in the past.

p

[Ben]

Look, I was in London in March 2006 and in March 2007. From this evidence would you assume I spent the whole year there?

It depends how often you cropped up in London between those two dates, Andy.

[aspallek]

It depends how often you cropped up in London between those two dates, Andy.

No, no. You are misunderstanding my question. If all you knew about my whereabouts was that I was in London in March 2006 and March 2007 and if you knew of no record of me being anywhere else in the interim, would you conclude that I was in London for that whole year?

[Ben]

No, but if I knew your whereabouts in London between 3rd August and 1st September 2007 and also knew that you'd been in London on several occasions in between those dates, I'd conclude that you were probably in London the whole time.

[aspallek]

No, but if I knew your whereabouts in London between 3rd August and 1st September 2007 and also knew that you'd been in London on several occasions in between those dates, I'd conclude that you were probably in London the whole time.

Two observations:

[1] "Probably" does not constitute an alibi.

[2] The only date between August 3-4 and September 1 that Montague Druitt is known to have been in Dorset is August 10-11. I agree that it is likely he spent the week between these dates in Dorset, though even that is a probability rather than a fact. But now the question becomes whether this was a week-long cricketing holiday in Dorset or a month-long holiday there. The fact that there is no documented record of Montague Druitt's appearance in a fixture between 11 August and 1 September to me rather argues against the month-long holiday. The fact is we just do not know his whereabouts between 11 August to 1 September. There is also the fact that he made what must have been a brief visit to his brother William in Bournemouth at the end of October. Therefore, such quick jaunts between London and Dorset were not unknown of Druitt. It is a rail journey of 2 to 3 hours.