Reasons why?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Maybe Druitt was just behaving strangely and something about his behaviour made his family suspicious? Maybe he came home on the night of one of the murders with blood on him ...

Where is the evidence that Druitt lived with relatives of his in London?

If he had come home with blood on him, why would his relatives have known about that?

[Michael W Richards]

I dont want to get into any snippy back and forth discussions on this, but my view is that the mentioning of Ostrog as someone he felt ranked among the top 3 "suspects" for the Ripper crimes...or at least better suspects than Cutbush, is important in this discussion. If a Senior Officer like Macnaughten didnt know that Ostrog could not feasibly be on anyones "suspect" list for the Ripper murders due to his being in custody during the crimes, then we are left with wondering what of that document is sound observation and what is just Macnaughten spouting off his opinions. In Ostrogs case, not a sound opinion at all.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If we ‘analyse’ a source document as we are advised then Bede’s ‘Historia Ecclesiastica Gentis Anglorum’ needs to go straight into the bin due to its numerous errors and examples of the author’s bias. Or maybe not?

I’d say that it’s better to look at things holistically and to assess Macnaghten with the clear understanding that a couple of errors should not invalidate the whole thing, especially when these facts were the result of memory failings. If we are told a piece of information and then think back and recall it, it’s hardly unlikely that we might get someone’s age and occupation wrong. But it’s hardly likely that someone could be told some information but you misremember it as a suggestion that someone might be Jack the Ripper.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I see. I don’t think you’re right about any of that, but as stated, it doesn’t really matter.

It’s simply a provocation tactic Kattrup. Clearly aimed at me as I’m the one on here who’s talking about Druitt.

[Kattrup]

You may well be right in that he 'will remain forever a person of interest', but it's not because he was 'named by a senior police official': it's because the people promoting his candidacy have no background in analysing source documents. Anyone with a modicum of experience in analysing source documents, will tell you that Macnaghten's words in his document are not worth the paper they're written on.

I see. I don’t think you’re right about any of that, but as stated, it doesn’t really matter.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Druitt was named by a senior police official and will remain forever a person of ripperological interest.

That logic is not useful, i.e. named by the police equals rightful 'person of interest'. Druitt remains a person of interest for people with no background in analysing source documents.

Macnaghten is an authority on some wider police matters; it does not automatically render Macnaghten an authority on Montague John Druitt. The weight of his authority is judged on his knowledge of that subject, i.e. Druitt.

In his own document, Macnaghten's knowledge on Druitt is found wanting and that compromises his 'private information' claim.

You may well be right in that he 'will remain forever a person of interest', but it's not because he was 'named by a senior police official': it's because the people promoting his candidacy have no background in analysing source documents. Anyone with a modicum of experience in analysing source documents, will tell you that Macnaghten's words in his document are not worth the paper they're written on.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael Richards welcome back to the discussion and a good point that Thomas Cutbush was nephew of a Met Police Super.

Remember AP Wolf, hot on the trail of Cutbush? What a gas.

Hi Paddy, and thanks. I do fondly remember AP, a great writer. Not sure about all his choices, but his talent was sure evident.

[Paddy Goose]

Michael Richards welcome back to the discussion and a good point that Thomas Cutbush was nephew of a Met Police Super.

Remember AP Wolf, hot on the trail of Cutbush? What a gas.

[Michael W Richards]

But he did say:

“Personally, after much careful & deliberate consideration, I am inclined to exonerate the last 2 but I have always held strong opinions regarding no 1., and the more I think the matter over, the stronger do these opinions become. The truth, however, will never be known, and did indeed, at one time lie at the bottom of the Thames, if my conjections [sic] be correct.”

In 1903 Abberline made some remarks which I find, contextually, to be quite similar to the one you posted for Macnaughten, ""...I cannot help feeling that this is the man we struggled so hard to capture fifteen years ago." However, he also said that "Scotland Yard is really no wiser on the subject than it was fifteen years ago."

I think these men truly struggled with the recounting of events considering the outcome was a failure for law enforcement. I think each man involved at all levels struggled. The outrage, and their impotence. In each statement above I believe both of the men stated the crimes were unsolved. Not that they had reached a solution after some reflection.To that they both added their own opinion.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

An excellent summary of points, worthy of further discussion rather more than just the debate over Macnaghten. I would reiterate my observation that I can't see any evidence for his sacking necessarily being on the 30th Nov, that appearing to be attributed solely to a presumed alteration of the 30 Dec date from the inquest. It may be that he was sacked for failing to offer an explanation for his failure to attend to his duties at the school before it was known that he had a valid excuse, that being the fact that he was dead. I would also re-iterate that it is not known if the suicide note, if it can be called as such, was dated, or the date of the "friday" referred to in that note.

All in all the points you have laid out in the above post have piqued my interest to the extent that I am more persuaded to consider Druitt as a person of interest, amongst others, of course.

Cheers, George

Hi George.

Thanks for the comment. He intrigued me pretty much from when I first read about the case and it increased as I learned more. I’ve quoted Farson before but his comment about Druitt’s unlikeliness as a suspect making him so interesting really stuck with me. So it’s my belief that because of who he was and of the type and class of person he was, and because of the resources available to Macnaghten, he’d have been one of the last people that Macnaghten would have mentioned in connection to the case. This doesn’t come close to making him guilty of course but it leaves me in the position of believing that Macnaghten wouldn’t have plucked Druitt’s name just because of his suicide. I think that Macnaghten did receive private information (originating from the family but not necessarily directly from them) and that he felt the information/evidence compelling. But all that I’ve ever said is that for all we know Druitt might have been the killer and that he has more ‘pointers’ than most.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I'm a little confused by this statement. Who was bracketing Druitt with two others prior to Druitt's death?

Cheers, George

Hello George,

Im assuming that Sims was just referring to the police (although it does sound like the memorandum) I know that Jon Hainsworth is of the opinion that the police were looking for Druitt by the time that his body was found.

[GBinOz]

This post isn’t intended as the case for the prosecution against Druitt. All points made here can be debated or disputed or subjected to various interpretations. It’s meant purely to show just some of the reasons why I, personally find Druitt the most intriguing of suspects.

…

Clearly there’s nothing physical that makes Druitt unlikely. He was 31, fit and strong, intelligent, would be able to charm. There’s nothing about his appearance that raises eyebrows (ok, of course he doesn’t sound like BS Man or Blotchy Man)

…

Can we physically place Druitt it the East End? Of course we can’t but if he had been there what evidence would we expect to find? Nothing. Could he have gone there? Absolutely. That’s all that matters. It proves nothing but we can’t dismiss him on grounds that we have no record of him being in Whitechapel. How many men of his class who did go there would have publicised the fact? None or less I’d guess. What reason, other than slumming might he have had for going there then….

In April of 1886 Tory politician J.G. Talbot held a meeting at King’s Bench Walk, where Druitt had his chambers, calling for Inner Temple barristers (particularly the Oxford men) to do charitable work by joining the Oxford House Mission in Bethnal Green. We have no ‘membership lists’ so clearly we can’t place Druitt at this mission but it still remains a plausible possibility for him.

Is there anything else that we know of that might have presented Druitt with the idea or the opportunity of doing charitable work among the poor? Yes, his brother-in-law the Reverend William Hough ran the Corpus Christi Cambridge Mission on the Old Kent Road.

And for all that we know he might have had a legal client or clients in the East End.

Also, in July of 1888 his mother was placed in the Brook House Asylum in Clapton. Druitt would undoubtedly have visited her. A straight line from Blackheath to Clapton would have taken him through the East End.

…


We don’t know what caused Ann’s mental health issues but it appears that she was first placed in care less than a month after her son Edward converted to Roman Catholicism. She had already lost her husband so this may have been, in part, a trigger for someone of already fragile mental health? Monty’s cousin the Reverend Charles Druitt called his conversion ‘treacherous conduct’ and a ‘painful subject.’ It was obviously a troubling issue within the family.

In the summer of 1888 she attempted suicide and was placed in the Brook House Asylum in Clapton in July. So this was less than 2 months before the murder of Mary Nichols. She showed no sign of improvement and was released just before the murders and was sent to Dr. Gasquet’s asylum in Brighton (for the sea air)

Dr. Gasquet described her as suffering from ‘melancholia with stupor,’ and that she was ‘obstinate’ and ‘with an unreasonable refusal to spend money.’

…

In early November of 1888 Monty’s Uncle James was writing a memoir of his life and a family history but he abandoned it abruptly (before Monty’s death so we can’t blame his suicide) and didn’t resume it until 6 years later (the year of the Memorandum). He airbrushed Monty’s side of the family away, saying “Now alas, no representative of the family is to be found” at Wimborne.” This was untrue. He also wrote “and thus avoiding mention of the defects which one hopes to conceal from one’s neighbours.“

…

13th January 1888 we have the interesting English Patient story found in the Philadelphia Times by Roger Palmer.

…

Druitt was found with a return train ticket on him when pulled out of the Thames. Raising the question - did he not intend suicide when he set out that day? Or could he have been killed?

…

The undated Crawford Letter was written by the Earl of Crawford (of 2, Cavendish Square) to Robert Anderson informing him of a woman who believed that she knew who the killer was and that he was closely related to her. In November 1888 Druitt’s aunt Isabella writes a letter to her daughter Edith saying that she has visited Cavendish Square complaining that she may never rid herself of an ‘encumbrance.’ A coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

…

In 1891 West Country politician Henry Farquaharsen was telling people that the ripper was the son of a surgeon who committed suicide by drowning himself in the Thames. When asked about the murder of Coles he was adamant that this wasn’t a ripper murder because the ripper was dead.

…

In Isabella Druitt’s address book was the name Farquaharsen.

…

In January 1899 the Daily Mail received a letter claiming to be from a clergyman who said that the killer had confessed to a “brother clergyman”. The ripper was a man from a good background who suffered from ‘epileptic mania,’and that he lost control during fits and often didn’t remember what he’d done. Strangely the letter was titled THE WHITECHURCH MURDERS - SOLUTION OF A LONDON MYSTERY? Whitechurch is aodd choice in place of Whitechapel. However there was a parish called Whitchurch or Whitechurch Canonicorum (used interchangeably) The parish vicar was the Reverend Charles Druitt.

…

In 1908 Frank Richardson writes The Worst Man In The World where the ripper is a doctor called Bluitt who drowns himself in the Thames.

…

We know of course that rumours cannot and should not be relied upon as being true. But we also know that they can occasionally be true or at least have a kernel of truth.

"When we lived there [Blackheath] formerly [e.g. before 1895] it was considered dangerous, for the terrible series of crimes committed by "Jack the Ripper"were then being perpetrated, and many people believed that he lived in Blackheath. ...he was never caught, although it was sometimes stated that he had been and was confined in Broadmoor."

Retired Admiral H. L. Fleet, "My Life and a Few Yarns", 1922, Allen and Unwin.

…

Sunday 24th August, 1913 The Mustard and Cress article by George Sims and his story of the killer lodging in Blackheath. He describes the killer as an insane Doctor named D***** who was pulled out of the Thames a month after the last murder.

…

In the 1936 American edition of his history of Scotland Yard Sir Basil Thomson says this about the ripper ““His friends had grave doubts about him, but the evidence was insufficient for detaining him with any hopes of obtaining a conviction.”

…

And we have the Memorandum of course.

…

Hi Herlock,

An excellent summary of points, worthy of further discussion rather more than just the debate over Macnaghten. I would reiterate my observation that I can't see any evidence for his sacking necessarily being on the 30th Nov, that appearing to be attributed solely to a presumed alteration of the 30 Dec date from the inquest. It may be that he was sacked for failing to offer an explanation for his failure to attend to his duties at the school before it was known that he had a valid excuse, that being the fact that he was dead. I would also re-iterate that it is not known if the suicide note, if it can be called as such, was dated, or the date of the "friday" referred to in that note.

All in all the points you have laid out in the above post have piqued my interest to the extent that I am more persuaded to consider Druitt as a person of interest, amongst others, of course.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

In his Referee column of 13 July 1902, Dagonet (Sims)wrote: …[the] process of exhaustion which enabled them at last to know the real name and address of Jack the Ripper. In that case [the police] had reduced the only possible Jacks to seven, then by a further exhaustive inquiry to three, and were about to fit these three people’s movements in with the dates of the various murders when the one and only genuine Jack saved further trouble by being found drowned in the Thames, into which he had flung himself, a raving lunatic, after the last and most appalling mutilation of the whole series. But prior to this discovery the name of the man found drowned was bracketed with two others as a Possible Jack and the police were in search of him alive when they found him dead.

Hi Herlock,

I'm a little confused by this statement. Who was bracketing Druitt with two others prior to Druitt's death?

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

This post isn’t intended as the case for the prosecution against Druitt. All points made here can be debated or disputed or subjected to various interpretations. It’s meant purely to show just some of the reasons why I, personally find Druitt the most intriguing of suspects.

…

Clearly there’s nothing physical that makes Druitt unlikely. He was 31, fit and strong, intelligent, would be able to charm. There’s nothing about his appearance that raises eyebrows (ok, of course he doesn’t sound like BS Man or Blotchy Man)

…

Can we physically place Druitt it the East End? Of course we can’t but if he had been there what evidence would we expect to find? Nothing. Could he have gone there? Absolutely. That’s all that matters. It proves nothing but we can’t dismiss him on grounds that we have no record of him being in Whitechapel. How many men of his class who did go there would have publicised the fact? None or less I’d guess. What reason, other than slumming might he have had for going there then….

In April of 1886 Tory politician J.G. Talbot held a meeting at King’s Bench Walk, where Druitt had his chambers, calling for Inner Temple barristers (particularly the Oxford men) to do charitable work by joining the Oxford House Mission in Bethnal Green. We have no ‘membership lists’ so clearly we can’t place Druitt at this mission but it still remains a plausible possibility for him.

Is there anything else that we know of that might have presented Druitt with the idea or the opportunity of doing charitable work among the poor? Yes, his brother-in-law the Reverend William Hough ran the Corpus Christi Cambridge Mission on the Old Kent Road.

And for all that we know he might have had a legal client or clients in the East End.

Also, in July of 1888 his mother was placed in the Brook House Asylum in Clapton. Druitt would undoubtedly have visited her. A straight line from Blackheath to Clapton would have taken him through the East End.

…


We don’t know what caused Ann’s mental health issues but it appears that she was first placed in care less than a month after her son Edward converted to Roman Catholicism. She had already lost her husband so this may have been, in part, a trigger for someone of already fragile mental health? Monty’s cousin the Reverend Charles Druitt called his conversion ‘treacherous conduct’ and a ‘painful subject.’ It was obviously a troubling issue within the family.

In the summer of 1888 she attempted suicide and was placed in the Brook House Asylum in Clapton in July. So this was less than 2 months before the murder of Mary Nichols. She showed no sign of improvement and was released just before the murders and was sent to Dr. Gasquet’s asylum in Brighton (for the sea air)

Dr. Gasquet described her as suffering from ‘melancholia with stupor,’ and that she was ‘obstinate’ and ‘with an unreasonable refusal to spend money.’

…

In early November of 1888 Monty’s Uncle James was writing a memoir of his life and a family history but he abandoned it abruptly (before Monty’s death so we can’t blame his suicide) and didn’t resume it until 6 years later (the year of the Memorandum). He airbrushed Monty’s side of the family away, saying “Now alas, no representative of the family is to be found” at Wimborne.” This was untrue. He also wrote “and thus avoiding mention of the defects which one hopes to conceal from one’s neighbours.“

…

13th January 1888 we have the interesting English Patient story found in the Philadelphia Times by Roger Palmer.

…

Druitt was found with a return train ticket on him when pulled out of the Thames. Raising the question - did he not intend suicide when he set out that day? Or could he have been killed?

…

The undated Crawford Letter was written by the Earl of Crawford (of 2, Cavendish Square) to Robert Anderson informing him of a woman who believed that she knew who the killer was and that he was closely related to her. In November 1888 Druitt’s aunt Isabella writes a letter to her daughter Edith saying that she has visited Cavendish Square complaining that she may never rid herself of an ‘encumbrance.’ A coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

…

In 1891 West Country politician Henry Farquaharsen was telling people that the ripper was the son of a surgeon who committed suicide by drowning himself in the Thames. When asked about the murder of Coles he was adamant that this wasn’t a ripper murder because the ripper was dead.

…

In Isabella Druitt’s address book was the name Farquaharsen.

…

In January 1899 the Daily Mail received a letter claiming to be from a clergyman who said that the killer had confessed to a “brother clergyman”. The ripper was a man from a good background who suffered from ‘epileptic mania,’and that he lost control during fits and often didn’t remember what he’d done. Strangely the letter was titled THE WHITECHURCH MURDERS - SOLUTION OF A LONDON MYSTERY? Whitechurch is aodd choice in place of Whitechapel. However there was a parish called Whitchurch or Whitechurch Canonicorum (used interchangeably) The parish vicar was the Reverend Charles Druitt.

…

In 1908 Frank Richardson writes The Worst Man In The World where the ripper is a doctor called Bluitt who drowns himself in the Thames.

…

We know of course that rumours cannot and should not be relied upon as being true. But we also know that they can occasionally be true or at least have a kernel of truth.

"When we lived there [Blackheath] formerly [e.g. before 1895] it was considered dangerous, for the terrible series of crimes committed by "Jack the Ripper"were then being perpetrated, and many people believed that he lived in Blackheath. ...he was never caught, although it was sometimes stated that he had been and was confined in Broadmoor."

Retired Admiral H. L. Fleet, "My Life and a Few Yarns", 1922, Allen and Unwin.

…

Sunday 24th August, 1913 The Mustard and Cress article by George Sims and his story of the killer lodging in Blackheath. He describes the killer as an insane Doctor named D***** who was pulled out of the Thames a month after the last murder.

…

In the 1936 American edition of his history of Scotland Yard Sir Basil Thomson says this about the ripper ““His friends had grave doubts about him, but the evidence was insufficient for detaining him with any hopes of obtaining a conviction.”

…

And we have the Memorandum of course.

…

[Herlock Sholmes]

That is hardly possible.

Police visits are often made to entirely innocent people, with no suspicion attaching to the person being visited - and the school would have been aware of that.

But this was the Victorian era when reputation and the schools honour would have meant everything to Valentine. How often would the police have turned up ‘innocently’ at a posh school? And how do we know that they didn’t give a hint that Druitt was wanted for something serious? We can’t know. Anyway PI, it’s not a ‘theory’ that I’m pushing. All that I’m saying is that in a vacuum of information many suggestions can be put forward. And of course, they might all be wrong.