Reasons why?

[c.d.]

I am waiting for c.d.'s answers.

It seems you do not have any.

c.d. can't be arsed any more to continue going in circles. I am passing the baton to Herlock.

c.d.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

You made the claim in # 153, Herlock.

Instead of reproducing in # 154 all the questions I posed in #152, why don't you try answering them?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I am waiting for c.d.'s answers.

It seems you do not have any.

Constantly repeating a speculation that Macnaghten lied, with zero evidence for it, is not constructive. It’s the equivalent of simply saying “no it wasn’t,” or “no he didn’t,” to everything.

Again, I have no way of proving that Macnaghten wasn’t lying and you have no way of proving that he was - this is a statement of categorical fact - and yet you simply refuse the let it stand. Why?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Contrary to your assertion, Herlock, it is not clear that Macnaghten had any evidence that suggested that Druitt was the Whitechapel Murderer nor that he 'wrote it down'.

When did I claim that he wrote it down? Again I’ll state the obvious but I really don’t understand why I should have to. You have no evidence that Macnaghten lied. Not a smidgeon PI. Not the tiniest scintilla. Just as I have no proof.

It is not, as you claim, merely speculation on my part that he had a sudden breakdown.

It is in his suicide note, which contains an allusion to his dismissal.

No it doesn’t. You’re speculating that it did. Why can’t you see the difference?

The evidence we have is that he committed suicide soon after his dismissal and that it was his dismissal that triggered it.

It said “since Friday..” and nothing more. There is absolutely nothing the could preclude a longer standing problem which culminated with him deciding on the Friday that he was going to commit suicide. All else is conjecture. When we are faced with an unknown as we clearly are here why can’t you simply accept it? It’s not a sign of weakness to admit that there are things that we simply have no way of knowing but you are reluctant to do so. I’m not.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Why are you so convinced that you can’t be wrong PI?

I am waiting for c.d.'s answers.

It seems you do not have any.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Contrary to your assertion, Herlock, it is not clear that Macnaghten had any evidence that suggested that Druitt was the Whitechapel Murderer nor that he 'wrote it down'.

It is not, as you claim, merely speculation on my part that he had a sudden breakdown.

It is in his suicide note, which contains an allusion to his dismissal.

The evidence we have is that he committed suicide soon after his dismissal and that it was his dismissal that triggered it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Macnaghten claimed that Kosminski 'had strong homicidal tendencies' and that Ostrog was a 'homicidal maniac'.

What basis do you imagine he had for making those statements?


Macnaghten claimed that Druitt 'disappeared at the time of the Miller's Court murder' and that Kosminski 'was removed to an asylum' about four months later.

What basis do you imagine he had for making those statements?


Macnaghten claimed that Kosminski 'had a great hatred of women, specially of the prostitute class'.

What basis do you imagine he had for making that statement?

Why are you so convinced that you can’t be wrong PI?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well, Herlock, you were unable to substantiate your assertion that

Macnaghten had evidence that he thought pointed to Druitt.

He clearly did. He even wrote it down.


Now you write:

I’m no expert in mental health issues but I wonder how prevalent it is for someone to have a setback in life, have a decline in mental health and then commit suicide all within the space of three weeks?

What three weeks?

My mistake.

The evidence is that it happened within the space of a few days.

It evidently was not a decline but a sudden breakdown.

Speculation and nothing more PI. Unless you were there, following him around, you simply can’t know that. I honestly don’t know why you make statements like this?

You also write:

To claim that there is ‘evidence that his suicide must have been connected to something else' just doesn’t hold water

and

what if they had found evidence that he was the ripper


More private information?

Do you know why he was sacked from the school PI? No. Neither does anyone else so pretty much anything is a possibility. And the suggestion that it might have been kept a secret to protect the reputation of the school can hardly be considered surprising. Especially in the Victorian era.

It is very convenient - is it not?- that there is 'private information' about Druitt being the Whitechapel Murderer, given by relatives of his to Macnaghten, and then private information about the murders, given by the school to Druitt, which the school then keeps private, and presumably was privately acquired by it.

You believe in a conspiracy to assassinate the most powerful man on the planet and in a huge cover-up to hide the fact and yet you find it totally unbelievable that someone in Victorian London just might have wanted to keep something private? A bit of balance PI, please.

Whatever the nature of the incident that led to his dismissal may have been, there is absolutely no reason to suspect that it had anything to do with the Whitechapel murders.

And there’s absolutely no reason to suspect that it didn’t.

Do you really want to keep going around in these circles PI?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Macnaghten had some basis for making the statements that he did...

Otherwise, we would have to conclude that he was lying or simply enjoyed making things up.

Macnaghten claimed that Kosminski 'had strong homicidal tendencies' and that Ostrog was a 'homicidal maniac'.

What basis do you imagine he had for making those statements?


Macnaghten claimed that Druitt 'disappeared at the time of the Miller's Court murder' and that Kosminski 'was removed to an asylum' about four months later.

What basis do you imagine he had for making those statements?


Macnaghten claimed that Kosminski 'had a great hatred of women, specially of the prostitute class'.

What basis do you imagine he had for making that statement?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Well, Herlock, you were unable to substantiate your assertion that

Macnaghten had evidence that he thought pointed to Druitt.


Now you write:

I’m no expert in mental health issues but I wonder how prevalent it is for someone to have a setback in life, have a decline in mental health and then commit suicide all within the space of three weeks?

What three weeks?

The evidence is that it happened within the space of a few days.

It evidently was not a decline but a sudden breakdown.


You also write:

To claim that there is ‘evidence that his suicide must have been connected to something else' just doesn’t hold water

and

what if they had found evidence that he was the ripper


More private information?

It is very convenient - is it not?- that there is 'private information' about Druitt being the Whitechapel Murderer, given by relatives of his to Macnaghten, and then private information about the murders, given by the school to Druitt, which the school then keeps private, and presumably was privately acquired by it.

Whatever the nature of the incident that led to his dismissal may have been, there is absolutely no reason to suspect that it had anything to do with the Whitechapel murders.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Macnaghten had evidence that he thought pointed to Druitt.

That is an assumption.

You cannot know that to be true.

It appears that we are caught up in semantics. Rather than get into an argument as to what constitutes "evidence" why not say that Macnaghten had some basis for making the statements that he did. Now that tells us nothing as to its reliability or whether it was factual only that he had some reason be it good or bad. Otherwise, we would have to conclude that he was lying or simply enjoyed making things up.

c.d.

That sums it up c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

Macnaghten had evidence that he thought pointed to Druitt.


That is an assumption.

You cannot know that to be true.


I believe that Macnaghten felt that he had sufficient reasons for naming Druitt. I can show my reasons, and how I came to them, for arriving at this opinion….but I have no way of proving it.

You believe that Macnaghten named Druitt for no other reason than his suicide and you can give your reasons for this opinion……but you have no way of proving it.

That is where we stand on this point and in the absence of any new evidence I’d suggest that our positions won’t change. Therefore nothing can be gained (for either of us or anyone else) in us going back and forth over the same point.

……….


Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

He had easy access to any anatomical knowledge the killer might have had.


There is no evidence that he had any relevant anatomical knowledge nor experience of applying it.


And as you should have been able to deduce from the section of my post that you are responding to, that’s not at all what I was saying. I’m not even suggesting any level of knowledge from the killer. The only reason that I made that very minor point is self evident. Perhaps a better way of putting it is that if we discuss suspects with no known medical/anatomical knowledge Druitt would have had better opportunity than most to have gained such knowledge due to his father being a surgeon. I’m talking about a possibility and nothing more. Does this minor point really require disputing PI?

……….


Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

His suicide gives a reason for the termination of the murders (if Kelly was the last of course) His suicide also points to a decline.


There is evidence that he suffered a mental breakdown three weeks after Kelly's murder, that it was triggered by his dismissal from his teaching post, and that the breakdown caused him to decide to commit suicide.

That is evidence that his suicide was not connected with any murder, but with something else entirely.


Of course it isn’t evidence PI. It’s speculation on your part. None of us know when Druitt started to have problems or when his problems might have become visible to others. We don’t even know why he was dismissed from the school. What if he’d sexually assaulted a female member of staff, what if he’d had an explosion of temper and struck a pupil, what if he’d been absent once too often, what if it had been discovered that he’d been visiting prostitutes, what if they had found evidence that he was the ripper, what if he’d turned to drink, what if he’d stolen some money, what if he’d exposed himself to a pupil. What if….

I’m no expert in mental health issues but I wonder how prevalent it is for someone to have a setback in life, have a decline in mental health and then commit suicide all within the space of three weeks? Druitt could have been having issues for months for all that we know. As we know today, people often manage to keep mental health issues from others until they gradually get worse. To claim that there is ‘evidence that his suicide must have been connected to something else just doesn’t hold water PI.


.

We really are getting nowhere PI. You won’t even concede the mildest and most obvious points.

[c.d.]

Macnaghten had evidence that he thought pointed to Druitt.

That is an assumption.

You cannot know that to be true.

It appears that we are caught up in semantics. Rather than get into an argument as to what constitutes "evidence" why not say that Macnaghten had some basis for making the statements that he did. Now that tells us nothing as to its reliability or whether it was factual only that he had some reason be it good or bad. Otherwise, we would have to conclude that he was lying or simply enjoyed making things up.

c.d.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Sorry, Jon, but even without the benefit of having seen Mrs Druitt's medical notes, I would imagine that she was suffering from something more serious than depression.

I understand, it's not unusual for those who object to think they know better than her doctor.
We have seen her medical condition written somewhere, she also had paranoid delusions.

You have just proved my point: paranoid delusions are obviously something more serious than depression.

And it is quite obvious that it is not a case of my making myself out to know better than her doctor.

It is rather a case of Druitt fearing that he was going mad, as I suggested in an earlier post.

You have written repeatedly that he must have feared that he would be locked up.

What he actually wrote was that he was afraid he would be like mother, not that he would be locked up.

[Wickerman]

Sorry, Jon, but even without the benefit of having seen Mrs Druitt's medical notes, I would imagine that she was suffering from something more serious than depression.

I understand, it's not unusual for those who object to think they know better than her doctor.
We have seen her medical condition written somewhere, she also had paranoid delusions.

Moreover, if Druitt thought that her condition merited being mentioned in his suicide note, then that too suggests that he thought she was suffering from something more substantial than depression.

You've convinced yourself of that possibility, but as the note no longer exists we can only rely on the coroner's summary after reading the note. And to me it is completely ambiguous.

And since she had never committed murder, or been charged with having committed murder, if Druitt was referring to murder in his suicide note, then why would he have mentioned his mother?

Because she was locked up, as he could be if his fears were realized.

At the time of his suicide, his mother had been in an asylum for three or four months.

Six months, but who's quibbling.

Why would he have been thinking about her spending the rest of her life in confinement?

Incurable, perhaps?
She did die just over a year later.

I do not agree that speculation that his relatives suspected him of having committed the Whitechapel murders is reasonable.

If they were in touch with him during the period in which the murders were committed, then they knew about his holiday in Dorset.

Why, then, would they have suspected him?

Researchers have been trying to use his cricket schedule to rule him out, all attempts have failed.
Why bring it up anymore?

Suicide did run in the family, but oddly only on the female side, as far as I know.