Is it plausible that Druitt did it?

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Graham,
I missed the earlier mention of Toughill.Sounds interesting.
In so far as Wilde goes,he had a number of straight friends as well as gay ones.He also spent a good deal of time in Hammersmith.There was a kind of Irish Literary Society there run in part by William Ernest Henley who was editor of the Scots Observerand befriended young writers.The poet Yeats attended it regularly and met Wilde there.Wilde was friendly with George Bernard Shaw who never abandoned him when his luck was out.He also knew William Morris who moved in the same literary artistic and political circles.
George Bernard Shaw and William Morris also had "open house" in Hammersmith at this time,both on the river front.
Best
Natalie

[aspallek]

I would remind one and all that the MP from West Dorset one Henry Richard Farquharson, who lived 10 miles from Druitt's home, implicated "a son of a surgeon" in February 1891. Druitt had been buried for a mere two years by then. Macnaghten must have known about it at least that early then, if not earlier. He did not only find out in 1894.

Now there are some very important questions about which we can now only conjecture. But at the same time, more research needs to take place. This is an exciting time because the identification of Farquharson opens up new possibilities for finding relevant information in archives, etc.

Among the important questions are:

When did the Druitt family's suspicions begin?

Where did Farquharson get his information? Where did Macnaghten get his? Was Farquharson the source of Macnaghten's information or did their get their information from a common source, perhaps a Druitt family member or friend of the family?

Does John Henry Lonsdale fit into this exchange of information at all? Lonsdale is the one man who seems to be everywhere and have connections with everybody. I was almost of a mind to dismiss him when I discovered Farquharson but the more I have looked into it, the more Lonsdale still looms big.

Some logical source criticism must follow. I studied that many years ago while studying theology. I'll have to "dust it off." The quest for additional discoveries must also continue.

[Graham]

Hi Graham,
I missed the earlier mention of Toughill.Sounds interesting.
In so far as Wilde goes,he had a number of straight friends as well as gay ones.He also spent a good deal of time in Hammersmith.There was a kind of Irish Literary Society there run in part by William Ernest Henley who was editor of the Scots Observerand befriended young writers.The poet Yeats attended it regularly and met Wilde there.Wilde was friendly with George Bernard Shaw who never abandoned him when his luck was out.He also knew William Morris who moved in the same literary artistic and political circles.
George Bernard Shaw and William Morris also had "open house" in Hammersmith at this time,both on the river front.
Best
Natalie

Hi Nats.

And he was, of course married and had children. But for all that, as far as I am able to ascertain, there was more than a touch of the 'mad, bad and dangerous to know' about him. I don't think he was so much vilified for his homosexuality (bisexuality?) as for his other traits, not the least of which was his espousing of Socialism. Further, I don't think he was as openly and as flautingly gay as his image might suggest, but he certainly was openly disrespectful of the Establishment, and not seen as a person with whom the sons of the gentry might safely consort - the Marquess of Queensbury (spelling?) certainly didn't think so.

I think it was the (long forgotten) writer Walter Pater about whom Oscar, on being informed of his death, asked, "Was he ever actually alive?"

Cheers,

Graham

[aspallek]

Hi Graham,
I missed the earlier mention of Toughill.Sounds interesting.
In so far as Wilde goes,he had a number of straight friends as well as gay ones.He also spent a good deal of time in Hammersmith.There was a kind of Irish Literary Society there run in part by William Ernest Henley who was editor of the Scots Observerand befriended young writers.The poet Yeats attended it regularly and met Wilde there.Wilde was friendly with George Bernard Shaw who never abandoned him when his luck was out.He also knew William Morris who moved in the same literary artistic and political circles.
George Bernard Shaw and William Morris also had "open house" in Hammersmith at this time,both on the river front.
Best
Natalie

So Nats, how do you think this ties in with Wilson's home on the riverfront at Chiswick, yards from where Druitt's body was found or with Druitt's apparent rail destination of Hammersmith on December 1? As to literary connections, how about the Sitwells, who had Chiswick connections, apparently knew the Tukes, had a family member at one time reside at The Osiers, were friendly with Christabel Aberconway, and repeated a rumor about the Ripper having been a veterinary student?

[Graham]

So Nats, how do you think this ties in with Wilson's home on the riverfront at Chiswick, yards from where Druitt's body was found or with Druitt's apparent rail destination of Hammersmith on December 1? As to literary connections, how about the Sitwells, who had Chiswick connections, apparently knew the Tukes, had a family member at one time reside at The Osiers, were friendly with Christabel Aberconway, and repeated a rumor about the Ripper having been a veterinary student?

Andy,

I see your point, but don't forget that, according to the police, Druitt's body had been in the river upwards of a month, and as the Thames is tidal it could have travelled a good distance before beaching itself at Chiswick.

But if I may repeat once more my 'Ripper Mantra' - you never know.

Cheers,

Graham

[c.d.]

Hi Graham

I agree that it is much more likely that Macnaghten received his information after Druitt's death. Still the question remains --why divulge that information to him if you didn't want him to do anything about it? Were they fishing to see if the police had anything on Druitt? I can't believe that Macnaghten wouldn't have attempted to verify their information if only to satisy his own human curiosity as to the Ripper's identity.

c.d.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Graham,
Well thats very close to how I see him too.He was quite a dandy and immensely stylish.I think he was a wonderful, lovely, gloriously eccentric character but very, very unwise and to flaunt it all as he did was just silly and rather arrogant if you thin k about it.
He was leftish but not over the top going on demos and such like William Morris.Nothing so vulgar as that I suspect!
But the Ballad of Reading Jail and De Profundis written about his imprisonment are amongst the most moving works in the English language.True genius.
Best
Natalie

[Natalie Severn]

So Nats, how do you think this ties in with Wilson's home on the riverfront at Chiswick, yards from where Druitt's body was found or with Druitt's apparent rail destination of Hammersmith on December 1? As to literary connections, how about the Sitwells, who had Chiswick connections, apparently knew the Tukes, had a family member at one time reside at The Osiers, were friendly with Christabel Aberconway, and repeated a rumor about the Ripper having been a veterinary student?

Yes Andy,I think all that is important.But I reckon he had simply come to the end of his tether and he knew Hammersmith as a quite peaceful place where he wouldnt be disturbed from what he planned to do with himself.
There is something really sad and touching about the way he dressed himself so smartly for the event ---right down to his gold watch chain and kid gloves. Its as though despite feeling very disturbed about himself,he still had enough self regard to keep up appearances-----a very English Gentleman......
Best
Natalie

[aspallek]

Andy,

I see your point, but don't forget that, according to the police, Druitt's body had been in the river upwards of a month, and as the Thames is tidal it could have travelled a good distance before beaching itself at Chiswick.

But if I may repeat once more my 'Ripper Mantra' - you never know.

Opinion seems to be divided on this. Yes, surely the body could have floated somewhat upstream if the tides were right. However, I don't believe I've spoken with anyone who thinks it could have floated upstream a great distance, from further away than Hammersmith Bridge, for example. But then there is the story by Woods in I Guarded the Waterfront in which he tells of recovering a body that had been entrapped on the bottom of a barge or boat. It was recovered quite a distance from where it entered the water.

Still, the most likely scenario is that Druitt entered the water near to where his body was found.

[Graham]

Hi Graham,
Well thats very close to how I see him too.He was quite a dandy and immensely stylish.I think he was a wonderful, lovely, gloriously eccentric character but very, very unwise and to flaunt it all as he did was just silly and rather arrogant if you thin k about it.
He was leftish but not over the top going on demos and such like William Morris.Nothing so vulgar as that I suspect!
But the Ballad of Reading Jail and De Profundis written about his imprisonment are amongst the most moving works in the English language.True genius.
Best
Natalie

Hi Nats.

Funny that when I was at school in the 1960's and required to read The Ballad Of Reading Jail I found it boring - not so now. Also funny that in this day and age about the only work that Oscar is remembered for is The Importance Of Being Earnest. I think he's in real danger of being forgotten, which would be sad. I have the Steven Fry film on dvd, but feel that it over-played his sexuality and eccentricities. Good, though. I've also played in 'Patience' by Gilbert & Sullivan a few times, which is still a pretty good send-up, as in "if you walk down Piccadilly with a poppy or a lily in your mediaeval hand". Nice.

Cheers,

Graham

[Graham]

Yes Andy,I think all that is important.But I reckon he had simply come to the end of his tether and he knew Hammersmith as a quite peaceful place where he wouldnt be disturbed from what he planned to do with himself.
There is something really sad and touching about the way he dressed himself so smartly for the event ---right down to his gold watch chain and kid gloves. Its as though despite feeling very disturbed about himself,he still had enough self regard to keep up appearances-----a very English Gentleman......
Best
Natalie

Hi Nats.

I've got a vague memory of some British general (Crimean War, maybe) who made a ghastly balls-up and it was suggested to him that he be left alone in his tent with a pistol. His response to this suggestion was that he'd only be prepared to do it if his full-dress uniform could be located. Way to go.

Cheers,

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats.

Funny that when I was at school in the 1960's and required to read The Ballad Of Reading Jail I found it boring - not so now. Also funny that in this day and age about the only work that Oscar is remembered for is The Importance Of Being Earnest. I think he's in real danger of being forgotten, which would be sad. I have the Steven Fry film on dvd, but feel that it over-played his sexuality and eccentricities. Good, though. I've also played in 'Patience' by Gilbert & Sullivan a few times, which is still a pretty good send-up, as in "if you walk down Piccadilly with a poppy or a lily in your mediaeval hand". Nice.

Cheers,

Graham

I hadnt heard of this Graham.I must get the video out by G&S!
Cheers
Natalie

[Graham]

I hadnt heard of this Graham.I must get the video out by G&S!
Cheers
Natalie

'Patience' is a total send-up and p**s-take of aestheticism, with the central character Reginald Bunthorne being an unashamed skit of Wilde - who Gilbert was not fond of, to say the least. Not the very best G&S, but entertaining.

Cheers,

Graham

[aspallek]

Yes Andy,I think all that is important.But I reckon he had simply come to the end of his tether and he knew Hammersmith as a quite peaceful place where he wouldnt be disturbed from what he planned to do with himself.
There is something really sad and touching about the way he dressed himself so smartly for the event ---right down to his gold watch chain and kid gloves. Its as though despite feeling very disturbed about himself,he still had enough self regard to keep up appearances-----a very English Gentleman......
Best
Natalie

The bit about being dressed to the nines doesn't surprise me much. However, going to Hammersmith or Chiswick simply to top oneself doesn't make sense to me. There were plenty of suitable places closer to home. Unless, of course, Hammersmith or Chiswick held some special memory for him. A last visit to someone buried in the graveyard at St. Nicholas, perchance? Still, there's that bit about the return ticket.

[Natalie Severn]

The bit about being dressed to the nines doesn't surprise me much. However, going to Hammersmith or Chiswick simply to top oneself doesn't make sense to me. There were plenty of suitable places closer to home. Unless, of course, Hammersmith or Chiswick held some special memory for him. A last visit to someone buried in the graveyard at St. Nicholas, perchance? Still, there's that bit about the return ticket.

Yes,thats quite likely,Andy.But the Thames was certainly a busy place elsewhere and if you were intent on topping yourself it would have been a bit difficult to find a quiet spot .
Natalie