Is it plausible that Druitt did it?

[Monty]

Mr P,

Do you think Jack went for prostitutes because they were the target or because of the availability?

I think the latter.

I must also applaud Colins post, so good I read it thrice. I think its pretty much spot on. He wouldnt do what he did, where he did, unless he felt comfortable. That goes without saying. I personally think the chances are high that he was local, evidence supports this

[Septic Blue]

Oh God! This will annoy Colin no end, but... here goes again:

[ATTACH]692[/ATTACH]

Colin

[Mr Poster]

hi ho Monty

I think he killed whores because they were handy targets. Especilly the weak sick drunk ones. He probably figured that out through familiarity with whores through using them.

I on th eother hand do not necessarily think that he was either local or common but that doesnt make him a toff either.

But we know that all sorts were down there with the girls so I see no reason why it wasnt one of those.

Plus, given the close quarters the locals were living under nd men with kidneys and uterii......I just do not see someone dossing in a doss house not being detected by the locals who already demonstrated their willingness to turn in their own.

p

[Sam Flynn]

hi ho

Hi Ho MrP - I've responded on a new thread. See ya there!

[Pilgrim]

Canter/Rossmo/Brantingham.

Kim Rossmo

Ph.D. 1996, Simon Fraser University, Criminology, Geographic Profiling: Target Patterns of Serial Murderers.

M.A. 1988 Simon Fraser University, Criminology, Fugitive Migration Patterns.

"The work that I did on geographic profiling was part of my PhD studies at Simon Fraser University School of Criminology. I was fortunate to have had two professors there to study under, Paul and Patricia Brantingham who had developed a theoretical model that looked at where crimes were most likely to occur, based on where an offender lived, worked and played. And so what they said, and I’m being very over-simplistic here, is that every one of us has an activity space, the areas that we live in, work in, play in, and our movement patterns around the city. Where they intersect with suitable target sites, that’s where crimes will occur." NCIS Conference, 1998.

~~~

David Canter

In 1986, police forces across the south of England were struggling to find the Railway Rapist who was then renamed the Railway Killer after murdering a victim for the first time. Dr. David Canter, a psychologist and criminologist from the University of Surrey, was invited to compose British crime's first offender profile. When John Duffy was later arrested, charged and convicted, it turned out 13 of Canter's 17 proclamations about the perpetrator were accurate. Profiling became commonplace in large-scale police searches afterwards.

Psychology for Architects (1974)

The Psychology of Place (1977)

Fires and Human Behaviour (1990)

Criminal Shadows (1 st ed. 1994)

~~~

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Pilgrim,

I've started another general thread on whether Jack was a local. The topic isn't specific to Druitt, I feel.

[Ben]

Hi Lars,

As Gareth has already pointed out, there were many other prostitute hotspots in London. Whitechapel wasn't the most prolific prozzie hotspot in London. There was never remotely any incentive for "Gentleman Jack" to return every time to the same specifically localized area each time (the very "skankiest"), and even then, the wealthy outsiders wouldn't have ventured into the heart of the East End itself. They'd just wait in their cabs in Aldgate for the prostitutes to come to them.

Now what do you think she meant by that exactly?

Simply that there were "all sorts" in Whitechapel and Spitalfields, which there were: Jewish slaughterman, foreign sailors, Gentile hawkers - all sorts, the vast majority of whom were impoverished and working class. When asked by the jury if she'd notice of the plaid-coat man was wearing a "silk top hat", Maxwell replied in the affirmative. Go figure, as our ex-colonial chums would say. There is really no reason to assume that Maxwell was specifiying class when she spoke of "all sorts". Some have magically inferred from this that Maxwell was saying that lots of toffs came there, but anyone familiar with the evidence will see that no such inference is permitted by her comments

[johnnyerwin]

Great discussion!

Although I don't feel Druitt is a very strong suspect for a number of reasons, I feel compelled to comment on the map posted earlier showing the "hot spots" available between Whitechapel and Blackheath. I think in order to make the map complete we should at least indicate Druitt's legal practice on it, as well perhaps the train station at Cannon street that he may have used on occasion. Accordingly I've placed a light blue ellipse on the map.

I think if we apply the same logic used before then we might conclude that the map no longer has much meaning; locations are now available at both ends of the range specified (if we are to believe this is a factor at all).

Again I'm not saying this should have any bearing on whether Druitt should be considered a suspect at all; just rounding out the picture a bit.

[miss marple]

Theatres

Hi,All.
Any man on the razz, would go 'up west.' The West End was always associated with good class whores, and, quality, discreet brothels,[ providing every vice] going back to the 18th century. Brothels were run by women. The male pimp is a development of organised crime gangs of the early 20th century. They were always individuals who exploited women , but on the whole it was a woman run business.
The theatre was always connected with prostitution since the 17th century.
The grand West End theatres of the 1880s were an important pick up place for high class 'working gals. The Alhambra and the Empire were the places to go. The Empire in Leicester Sq had a notorious promenade where beautifully dressed and made up whores picked up fashionable men. The stage, had displays of sexily clad dancing girls, some no better than whores.
There was a famous incident at the Empire in 1894 when two naive Anmericans were solicited at the Empire Promenade.They complained to Mrs Ormiston Chant, A leading campaigner against vice. The London County Council nearly revoked their theatre license, but the theatre had powerful friends, and It was decided that the Empire could keep its license, as long as a screen was placed between the stalls and the promenade and drink was not sold in the auditorium.
The upshot was that the screen was torn down by angry aristocrats, including the young Winston Churchill!
The upper classes had the best of everything, that includes the best girls , the best brothels. Professionals who were used to servicing rich man.I can't see a rich man today going to the meanest housing estate in town to pick up a junkie, when he can dial up an attractive call girl or go to a proper brothel.
Slumming meant going to an east end music hall with some mates,[ The music halls were usually on the main throughfares] NOT walking the mean streets of the east end at three in the morning wearing top hats and capes sporting large gold watches.
How many people today would willing walk around the most unknown dangerous part of town in the middle of the night? Cheers Miss Marple

[Sam Flynn]

Again I'm not saying this should have any bearing on whether Druitt should be considered a suspect at all; just rounding out the picture a bit.

Thanks for that, Johnny. Although for a truly rounded picture, one should (a) ascertain how often Druitt was in the blue ellipse, compared to his home in the black(heath) rectangle; and (b) extend the map further north and west to include other areas where streetwalkers would hang out. The map is only a segment of the south-eastern "corner" of Greater London, but prostitution was by no means confined to it.

[Natalie Severn]

Moreover, although I cant remember all the detail, a young woman who used to "earn a little extra" when cash got tight,used to meet a "gentleman" who wore a light coloured coat, in Charing Cross Station and the area around embankment.This was also in 1888 and she was also found murdered and her killer never caught.It has been considered possible that this might be a match for Druitt.Will try to find the reference.Stewart Evans found some information on the case and put it in one of his books.
Best
Natalie

[aspallek]

Interesting, Nats. I don't remember that. I'm looking forward to the reference.

[caz]

However, if any well-heeled gent from the West End fancied a bit on the side, nothing would induce him to pay for sex outside his own environment, and there were high-class knocking-shops a-plenty out West...

...Maybe someone like Druitt did the slumming tour, for kicks, but I honestly doubt if an educated, well-bred gent would ever even consider paying for sex on the streets of the East End. He wouldn't be seen dead on the sh!t-strewn pavements, let alone go with some woman who trod them. If the Ripper came from the better-heeled, better-educated, classes, then for my money he'd have been someone like a doctor or a lawyer who had good reason to spend time in the East End...

Graham

Hi Graham,

Like Mr P, I would just like to wheel in Hugh Grant again as proof that even the filthy rich and world famous can be lured away from their own environment to pay peanuts for grubby sexual encounters with complete strangers. I don’t see what difference a continent and a hundred years would make. There have always been men just like Hugh and there always will be.

But of course, it’s immaterial whether the man who murdered and mutilated East End street walkers for free would have been induced at the drop of a slouch hat to pay for sex acts with them, or would not have allowed his wedding tackle anywhere near one of their orifices. All we can really say about him is that he wanted to be able to use his knife on women and remain undetected and free to repeat the behaviour. That may well have been enough to dictate where he sought his victims and what sort of woman they would be: unfortunates so desperate that they could be murdered quickly, easily and safely, for the promise of a few pennies, out on the mean anonymous streets east of the city border; not canny inhabitants of some professionally run knocking-shop, high-class or otherwise.

The killer had to start somewhere, no matter where he had a base, and when it worked out for him the first time, there is no reason to suppose that his compulsion to repeat the process within a relatively short time did not extend to a compulsion to stick to the same area, for reasons of practicality and comfort or ritual and superstition - factors that could all have been a bigger deal to him than the increasing police presence. This plainly wasn’t enough to change the killer’s behaviour and stop him killing again while the heat was very much on. So if Ben’s local man chose to carry on regardless and risk the consequences, instead of stopping until things had cooled right down, then a non-local killer could have chosen to carry on regardless, instead of moving his operations to a cooler location.

And a doctor or lawyer with good reason to spend time in the East End in 1888? Have you not been paying attention to Ben and Sam? There ain’t no such beast. Doctors and lawyers (or teachers and undertakers), didn’t dare venture into the East End, let alone get to know the geography of the place. If the dirt poor inhabitants got sick, needed a lawyer, wanted to learn to read and write or died, they were obviously left to rot. The London Hospital in Whitechapel, with all its medical and admin staff, is a myth created by early toff theorists, and the only locals who ever managed to get medical treatment had to steal some boots or tramp barefoot to the nearest doctor outside the area. When they got there he had to treat their blisters too.

Even if the odd doctor did take his life in his hands and set foot in this hell on earth, who ever heard of one with an urge to kill rather than cure? Harold Shipman is just one more myth dreamed up by those pesky toff theorists. The majority of serial killers are working-class (not because most of the population is working-class, you understand, oh no, there has to be more to it than that or the profilers really would be out of a job), so it’s just too improbable that the one notching up the most murders would represent the tiny minority who are not only middle-class but also members of the ‘caring’ profession.

...The theatre was always connected with prostitution since the 17th century.
The grand West End theatres of the 1880s were an important pick up place for high class 'working gals...

...I can't see a rich man today going to the meanest housing estate in town to pick up a junkie, when he can dial up an attractive call girl or go to a proper brothel.
Slumming meant going to an east end music hall with some mates,[ The music halls were usually on the main throughfares] NOT walking the mean streets of the east end at three in the morning wearing top hats and capes sporting large gold watches.
How many people today would willing walk around the most unknown dangerous part of town in the middle of the night? Cheers Miss Marple

Hi Miss Marple,

I can’t see a man ever getting rich in the first place, if he dials up a call girl or goes to ‘a proper brothel’ whenever he decides he wants a woman to murder and mutilate. He’d have to be a chinless twit who had inherited his money to be that stupid.

I must say, I find this tendency to believe that a man of means will only go with ‘respectable’ tarts (whatever that means) and is rarely capable of violence against women a bit disturbing and veering dangerously towards the politically incorrect. Nobody is arguing for a killer sporting a top hat, cape and large gold watch, while willingly walking through dangerous parts of the East End at night in search of his next victim, never mind suggesting that it was common for slummers to do the same in search of more innocent kicks.

If, as you say, slumming meant going to an East End music hall with some mates, you could do worse than to look for Jack emerging from the Pavilion Theatre, Whitechapel, a spit from Buck’s Row, at the end of August 1888, and working up a ripping fire in his belly as he watched all the working ‘girls’ plying their trade. I'd put money on him seeing them at some point, whether he was a regular Pavilion man or had never set foot in the place himself.

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Caz,

And a doctor or lawyer with good reason to spend time in the East End in 1888?

Ay! There's the rub! We have no good reason for Druitt being in Bucks Row/Hanbury St (etc) at all, unless one wants to make him Jack the Ripper. A somewhat circular argument, needless to say.

[Ben]

Like Mr P, I would just like to wheel in Hugh Grant again as proof that even the filthy rich and world famous can be lured away from their own environment to pay peanuts for grubby sexual encounters with complete strangers. I don’t see what difference a continent and a hundred years would make

Well, you can wheel him straight out again, Caz, because he isn't remotely applicable here. He didn't deliberately seek out an area than was advertised and alluded to extensively as one of the worst slums - if not THE worst slum - in Greater London (or the equivelent) purely for prostitution, especially when there were were numerous other prostitute hotsopts around.

All we can really say about him is that he wanted to be able to use his knife on women and remain undetected and free to repeat the behaviour

So our hypothetical wealthy outsider decided that the best way of acheiving this would be to kill on the streets in a overcrowded district with a nocturnal population? No, I rather suspect the perpetrator selected these killings fields for a want of better options.

The killer had to start somewhere, no matter where he had a base, and when it worked out for him the first time, there is no reason to suppose that his compulsion to repeat the process within a relatively short time did not extend to a compulsion to stick to the same area

Yes, there is "reason to suppose" that. We have ample evidence that closely clustered crimes (where the murder locatations are within easy walking of eachother) are perpetrated by offenders who live, or at the very least have a bolt hole, in the area - and invariably it's area they have a close familiary with.

Learn from the past. Yes, there's a specacularly brilliant reason to suppose that Jack the toff didn't keep commuting into the same highly localized cluser despite an increasing police presence, despite the availablity of other prostitute places, despite the money and transport to get there....it militates against historical precedent, expert opinion that noted, worked on, and documented those cases, and crime scene evidence from Whitechapel itself; the offender heading East into the centre of the crime "map", rather than West.

So if Ben’s local man chose to carry on regardless and risk the consequences, instead of stopping until things had cooled right down

A local man has not the luxury of seeking ripper pastures anew, especially if he's far from home and isn't remotely familiar with them. Of course you had doctors in the East End, and they were dwarfed, population-wise, by the local Joe-Average proletariat. But, of course, the latter category don't churn out enough "interesting" or titilating suspects so they're apt to be chucked out by those still wedded to their top-hatted "Haha, the fools" type chaacters.

Nobody is arguing for a killer sporting a top hat, cape and large gold watch, while willingly walking through dangerous parts of the East End at night in search of his next victim, never mind suggesting that it was common for slummers to do the same in search of more innocent kicks.

It wasn't, that's the problem. They'd dress down.

If, as you say, slumming meant going to an East End music hall with some mates, you could do worse than to look for Jack emerging from the Pavilion Theatre, Whitechapel, a spit from Buck’s Row, at the end of August 1888

And throw a couple of peasants on the fire in time for Pimm's o'clock.

No, because our slummer is likely to be familiar only with the locality of the Pavillion Theatre, rather than Northern Spitalfields or St. George-in-the-East, and again, he'd be an exceptionally rare (only?) example of a commuter killer who kept commuting into the same tiny-radius locale. Me, I'd dismiss the likelihood of this in favour of a local or locally-based killer who knew the area - the type of offender who crops up far more frequently. Boring, but..