Is it plausible that Druitt did it?

[Ben]

5 miles to a Victorian man was nothing. he could have been within walking distance of his house and still half way over London.

Yes, Lars, but even today you'll see many closely clustered crime scenes with a locally based perpetrator. 5 miles to a Victorian man wasn't much, but if a successful escape is predicated on an ability to get off the streets at the earliest opportunity, it wouldn't have been very prudent to waste all that energy getting there, only to hoof it all the way back exposed and on the streets. And if 5 miles was "nothing" to a Victorian man without transport, it would have been even less to a Victorian man with transport.

Unless you have some insight into our man....you cannot say what or what was not prudent.

I disagree. Inferering plausible behavioural traits on the basis of what other serial killers have done is far more prudent than conjuring up entirely speculative scenarios with no historical precedent to recommend them whatsoever. It may lead to a less glamorous explanation to a series of grisly crimes, and it might prompt a small minority of us to re-think our dashing docs and upper-class slummers (and, no, I'm not saying that minoity includes you), but it should be encouraged all the same.

Perchance our chap killed the first one (having gone into the EE for what ever reason) and liked the attention. Then simply decided he would ramp it up and stick to one area?

Yeah, maybe. Not wholly beyond the realms of possbilty, but me, I'm more inclined to the view that he was locally-based, working class, and operated in an area he felt most comfortable with - the area he lived in. I'm more inclined to this view because it's bolstered by historical precedent, expert opinion and crime scene evidence.

for everything your say is what "the vast number do" anyone can find an equal number of killers who did precisely the opposite or can point out why this "vast number" are individually irrelevant to our man

I'm extremely confident that they'd fail on both counts, but I'm sure that won't deter someone from trying. Meanwhile, we venture further and further away from the premise of this thread.

[Mr Poster]

Hi ho Ben

Indeed. But one also finds clusters that are not perpetrated by a local and the existence of a cluster can olso indicate that a person is in the area regularly or is familiar with the area. You cannot say at all that the person must live there or nearby......only that they are to be found for some reson or another in the area more than once. They could be there for work, pleasure or any other reason. People can be regularly in places where they do not live.

A succesfull escape does not mean getting off the streets entirely. Just out of the area or off the streets in that area. At any rate, one could hang out on the streets all night as unless you were seen, there is no way to prove you did anything. So "escape" off the streets is only important if one was seen and in the twentieth century.

It may lead to a less glamorous explanation to a series of grisly crimes, and it might prompt a small minority of us to re-think our dashing docs and upper-class slummers (and, no, I'm not saying that minoity includes you), but it should be encouraged all the same.

You are relying on "local" or "toff". Thats pointless. The killer could have been a bank clerk from 3 miles away. Not local. Not a toff. Not a scumbag.

I'm more inclined to the view that he was locally-based, working class, and operated in an area he felt most comfortable with - the area he lived in.

And I am more incllined to the view that whilst he my have been that there is nothing to suggest he wasnt a bit better than a porter, worked in the area, did not live there but nonetheless knew it reaonably well. I dont live in Oslo but do business there and could easily kill a few women there as its far from my home . I dont live there but I am there often and wouldl know my way around. And I am not a fish porter eitehr.

Meanwhile, we venture further and further away from the premise of this thread.

me too. But perhaps Druittists need a last gasp of activity before the impending alibi information comes to surface and this most implausible of suspects (and I am only according him that disttinction to keep the peace) finally gets to rest in peace.

I might join the queue of people lining up to apologise at his grave side as it should be a very intereting bunch indeed.

p

[Ben]

You cannot say at all that the person must live there or nearby......only that they are to be found for some reson or another in the area more than once.

Ah, but Lars, to be fair I didn't say anything about "must". Just that on the basis of historical precedent, crime scene evidence and expert opinion from those with experience in the field, it would seem more likely than not that he had a bolt-hole relatively central to the murder district. It's just that bit more parsimonious and that bit more likely. Added to which he clearly headed East of Mitre Square after dispatching Eddowes, into the heart of the murder district, as opposed to West.

People can end up in "places where they do not live", but when it come to a serial killing career, the perpetrators tend more often than not to operate close to their bolt-hole in the instances where crimes are closely clustered and the offender lacks readily available private transport. It doesn't matter what era we're investigating, I can't think of a single example of a "commuter" serial killer whose crimes are within walkable distance of eachother. If the reverse was true, then the likes of Rossmo and Canter would be making suggestions along the lines that he may have been a bank clerk who lived three miles away, rather than somewhere central to the crime locale.

Just out of the area or off the streets in that area. At any rate, one could hang out on the streets all night as unless you were seen, there is no way to prove you did anything.

Well, you'd be somewhat snookered, I'd say, if you didn't have somewhere to "bolt" too rather quickly in the wake of the Hanbury Street murder in those daylight hours, and doubly so in the Kelly and Tabram murders (if you chalk one or both up to Jack's handiwork).

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

5 miles to a Victorian man was nothing.

Indeed so, MrP - which begs the question of why most of the Whitechapel Murders occurred within less than half a mile of the Brick Lane/Wentworth Street junction.

[aspallek]

Added to which he clearly headed East of Mitre Square after dispatching Eddowes, into the heart of the murder district, as opposed to West.

This is most likely irrelevant to where the killer lived, or at least as likely to be irrelevant as not. Virtually being caught red-handed (literally!), the killer would merely have fled in the quickest and safest direction available to him.

[Ben]

Not for that long though, Andy, and especially if his intended direction was West. Obviously, the approach of PC Watkins would have ruled out an escape via Mitre Street, but he could easily have bolted left or right on Duke's Place and righted himself, rather than continuing to head eccentrically in the wrong direction!

Best wishes,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

This is most likely irrelevant to where the killer lived, or at least as likely to be irrelevant as not. Virtually being caught red-handed (literally!), the killer would merely have fled in the quickest and safest direction available to him.

Heading North up Mitre Square, East across Duke Street, then two or three blocks further East into reinforced "H" Division territory hardly sounds safe or quick, for someone whose intended destination lay elsewhere, Andy. It was a positively daft trajectory for someone to have taken if they had a bolt-hole West of Mitre Square, or in its more immediate vicinity.

[Mr Poster]

hi ho SamF

Five miles to a Victorain IS nothing. But I am at a loss as to your point given that mine was mde addressing the fact that our man could have travelled into Whitehcpale to do his deed. The distance of crims to any arbitrary point has nothing to link it to his house....perhaps his place of work was the location you describe or he was able to purchase some other thing that he wanted there. The fact that all were in cluster may equally represent the probability (spatially) of his being accosted by a whore on any night he worked late and was walking home or whatever.

As to his trajctory after Eddowes.....somehow I doubt he stopped to think "I better not go that way into the recntly reinforced H division area". I imagine his route was determined primarily by his being right or left handed which is the thing that determines which way we are most likely to turn at a T junction when legging it in what must have amounted to a fairly pell mell journey to get away from the crime scene.

p

[aspallek]

Sam --

The point is that the killer heard the PC approaching and so he took off in essentially the opposite direction, fleeing for safety, until he reached the relative safety of the doorways on Goulston Street. Two or three blocks is not an unreasonable distance at all. I doubt he even thought about H Division being re-inforced at the moment. He just wanted to flee in a direction that was not blocked by a PC at that instant. Others agree on this point, Stewart Evans, for one.

Actually, as is the case with many of these arguments, one's own point can be used against one's premise. If the killer did live within H Division territory and he knew that H Division was heavily reinforced and on alert after Stride's murder, would he knowingly head for home at a time when he could be observed and recognized returning home immediately after a Ripper murder? That doesn't sound too smart to me, either! That's the problem. We are very limited in our ability to use logic when considering a killers individual movements because there are so many factors that come into play -- especially the factor that deranged killers do not always act logically.

[Sam Flynn]

I am at a loss as to your point given that mine was made addressing the fact that our man could have travelled into Whitehcpale to do his deed.

Hello MrP,

The point is... why Whitechapel, especially? We have to account for the slum areas, not exactly bereft of impoverished prostitutes (examples in red circles - Greenwich, Deptford, Rotherhithe, Bermondsey, Ratcliff, Poplar, Stepney ), that intervened between Blackheath (black rectangle, bottom right corner) and the Ripper's "orbit" (blue ellipse), its imaginary axis running just North of Whitechapel High Street.

[Ben]

Two or three blocks is not an unreasonable distance at all.

It is a little bit unreasonable, Andy, for reasons Gareth suggested.

He wouldn't simply have been heading eccentrically in the wrong direction for an unneccesary length of time. He'd be heading in the direction of two police forces trafficking between two crime scenes and two police stations (Leman and Commercial Street), and even then he'd need to head back West at a time when a police presence in and around Mitre Square would have increased considerably. Rather than heading into danger and potentially trapping himself in the worst possible location, it was surely - surely - better to head West as soon as he possibly could after emerging onto Duke Passage.

More likely, he bolted for the heart of the murder district because he lived in that general direction.

[aspallek]

I suppose we are just going to disagree on this. I was going to give several more reasons to justify my view but I don't think there is any point.

[Mr Poster]

hi ho

Or else he didnt think at all and just ran in a bit of a panic to get anywhere but Mitre Sq.

This picture of our cool calculator stopping to wipe his knife and write some graffiti is most likely nonsense and the apron was most likely thrown away as he struggled to divest himself of anything to connect him to Miter Square in his haste. The kidney probably ended up in the street too, eaten by a dog. Or a Kosminskey perhaps.

Unless someone has evidence for our mans deliberately plotting his course as he conducted his Exodus From MItre Square? As opposed to just scarpering. Like criminals do.

p

[detective abberline]

Mitre Sq

It was her apron. Now that's a fact no-one can dispute. i've never thought it likely he'd stop and write graffiti on a wall. But he did pass through there.
Cheers

[Ben]

He needn't have been a cool calculator, Lars. Just someone who wanted to steer himself in the rght direction as soon as possible, which would have been immediately after leaving Mitre Square. I can't quite envisage "blind panic" propelling him into an erroneous and dangerous direction to quite such an extent. If blind panic played a role, it would probably have caused him to bolt directly for his "bolt-hole", and get off the streets as quickly as possible.