Hanbury Street to Blackheath in 6 hours?

[Chris]

Ben

Please don't go on wasting everybody's time like this.

Whether Druitt would have been too tired to play cricket and whether there would have been enough time for him to get back and prepare for the game are obviously two separate issues. We went through all this yesterday and you agreed that they were separate issues. You can't just turn round now and say the opposite.

Clearly Druitt would have had plenty of time to get back to Blackheath and prepare for the game. You were simply wrong when you said the timing was "very tight". Please either have the honesty to admit it, or the sense not to say any more about it.

[Ben]

Please don't go on wasting everybody's time like this.

Who I am I keeping here, Chris?

I'm not forcing anyone to read or listen to anything.

You stated twice that you weren't prepared to waste anymore of your own time, but here you still are.

Whether Druitt would have been too tired to play cricket and whether there would have been enough time for him to get back and prepare for the game are obviously two separate issues.

Yes, but the issue of his tiredness cannot help but be of significance to the game of cricket he would have been playing a little later that morning. Surely you see that? You cannot possibly divorce the two issues completely. Sugden didn't, which is why he described the proposal as unlikely. My only regret is that I didn't elaborate further on the nature of the "tightness" of the timing, which concerned the plausibility of the proposal, not any physical impediment to his ability to dispatch Chapman.

I don't particularly want to say anything more about it, but it people are insistent upon dredging the issue up...

[aspallek]

My original Google maps search didn't, Andy. It said 3-point-something miles, and 57 minutes' walk (see above). However, I just tried it again and a totally different answer came out (2 miles and 43 minutes). Bizarre...

I can't imagine where that is coming from, Gareth. I repeated the searches several times and always got the same results I posted above.

[anna]

This has turned into a rediculous tussle over nothing.


Monty would have had plenty of time to murder Annie....get back to Blackheath.....and go out to play cricket.

A serial killer can change mindset from one of murder,to one of normality in minutes...

So,I don't see where the problem is.....if he travelled by train,easy.....if he walked....exhausted....but as Andy said,he was an athelete.

[Chris]

So,I don't see where the problem is.....if he travelled by train,easy.....if he walked....exhausted....but as Andy said,he was an athelete.

I must say I think the issue of whether he would have been too tired to play a game of cricket six hours after the murder is a bit of an odd one to raise, considering that in 1888 Saturday was a working day for most "ordinary" people, and the odds are that an "unknown local man" would have been expected to be at work hours before 11.30, quite possibly doing something a lot more strenuous than standing around on a cricket pitch!

[Brenda]

If the Ripper suffered from manic depression and killed during a "manic" phase, he could have been up for days without feeling tired.

Whether Druitt was the Ripper, we'll probably never know for sure, but I think its been established beyond a reasonable doubt that he would have had time to commit the Hanbury St. murder and still attend his game. Unless new evidence ever comes to light, we'll never be able to cross Druitt off the suspect list.

[anna]

Hi Chris,

I can see what you mean..

I was just trying to get the walking issue into perspective.....he's walked from Hanbury Street to London Bridge....then..if he takes the straight route..as we all have in times of rail disputes...and walks down the Jamaica Road(in the Elelphant and Castle area)to New Cross and on to Blackheath....that's a really long walk....which would cut that 6 hours down considerably...under half easily,I'd say.

Besides which.....I don't think Monty just "stood around" on the cricket pitch..by the accounts I've read in the local papers of the time....he was very much in the forefront of the action.

ANNA.

[Victor]

Does anyone know any further details about the cricket match? As in was he batting or fielding first? Because from my experience if he was batting he could have been moved further down the order from his usual if he was tired or turned up late. He could even grab a kip and be woken up by his teammates if he was further down the order, or after he was out.

I seem to remember that he didn't perform particularly well in that match so it could be he was preoccupied.

KR,
Vic.

[Ben]

If the Ripper suffered from manic depression and killed during a "manic" phase, he could have been up for days without feeling tired.

I'm inclined to doubt that, Brenda. A natural by-product of mania is exhaustion, and five days without feeling tired is really a stretch. Besdies, I don't think the killer was necessarily suffering from outward and visible mania or psychosos of the order that would easily be noticed on a cricket pitch.

The difference between an "unknown local man" and Druitt in terms of the tiredness factor has more to do with the fact that Druitt would have been walking considerable distances and doing more travelling than someone bolting into the nearest house of lodging establishment and spending hours sleeping off the night's excesses. Not all local men, known of otherwise, would have been in regular employment so it needn't follow that they would have been undertaking stenuous work shortly after the murder.

Another crucial distinction between Druitt and the generic "ULM "is that work for the poor members of the district was necessary to secure a roof over their head at night, which is completely different from an optional leisure activity. If Druitt felt disinclined to bother on the grounds that, y'know, he was dispatching a prostitute a few hours earlier after sauntering the district looking for one in the small hours (as I strongly suspect he would have done), it wouldn't have had the same negative effect as a ULM skipping work.

As Sugden obserevs:

"It would have been possible for him to have murdered her in Spitalfields at 5.30 and then to have caught a train to Blackheath and to have washed, changed and breakfasted in time to turn out on the Rectory Field by 11.30. Nevertheless, it must be conceded that bearing in mind the probability that Annie's killer had been prowling the East End streets for most of the night such a scenario does seem distinctly unlikely."

The problems arise, as Gareth so aptly mentioned on the podcast, when the distinctly unlikely but possible is allowed to mutate into the "probable" which in turn runs the risk of enlarging to "By jove, he did it!" in the fullness of time.

[Fisherman]

Brenda is correct, as far as I can see:

From the site SurgeryDoor (http://www.surgerydoor.co.uk/medical...depression.htm)

”The manic phase is often the opposite of the depressive phase. The patient becomes elated and has far more energy than normal. He often stays up all night, not because he can't sleep but because he has so much to do.”

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

Thanks for that useful extract, Fish.

However, I was responding to the suggestion than the manic phase can last for days without the sufferer feeling tired. Such episodes can last for weeks or months, but that wouldn't preclude the need for sleep. I can cheerfully accept that people can stay up all night because of their intended activity, albeit "not because he can't sleep".

Thanks, though.

All the best,
Ben

[Fisherman]

I was wondering, Ben, why you spoke of five days in your post. Brenda did no such thing - she simply stated that a manic phase could easily have seen Druitt through the Chapman-Blackheath stretch.
I fail to see where the five-day session enters that discussion.

Fisherman

[Ben]

Whoops, thought I saw the word "five" there. Sorry about that, Brenda.

I was responding to the "up for days without feeling tired" remark. But no worries. No big deal.

[Fisherman]

Simple explanation to a small riddle there, Ben - I thought as much. And an important comment fron Brendas side, clearly pointing to the possibility that Druitt may easily have been wide awake way beyond that game of cricket.

Fisherman

[Ben]

And an important comment fron Brendas side, clearly pointing to the possibility that Druitt may easily have been wide awake way beyond that game of cricket.

Absolutely, Fisherman. It would necessitate the positing of "manic depression" onto Druitt, but I'm certainly not ruling out any possibilities however unlikely I believe the general premise to be. Equally important, to my mind, is the observation I made about the distinction between a hypothetical local man who would have been working the next day out of necessity, and Druitt who would have been cricketting out of non-compulsory leisure.

Best regards,
Ben