Hanbury Street to Blackheath in 6 hours?

[Ben]

I asked you that question precisely because I was afraid that - once the timings had been laid out and it was obvious Druitt would have had plenty of time - you would try to blur the issue yet again by raising these other factors.

Ah, I had a sneaking suspicion you were up to something, Chris.

If I said that the issue of Druitt being up all night had no relation to timing, then I'm afraid I must have misunderstood your question, since it's indisputable that timing must have played a part. This is fairly obvious; if the cricket match was several days after the murder, the issue of Druitt having been up all night is rendered immaterial. His being up all night, when taken in tandem with the proximity of the cricket match in terms of time can only be considered germane to Sudgen's belief that Druitt killing Chapman is "distinctly unlikely".

Since timing unquestionably played a part in the "distinct unlikelihood" of the "Hanbury Street to Blackheath" theory, I think I'm pretty justified in opining that the timing is too tight to consider it plausible. I say so because tiredness etc are all directly allied to the time of the match in relation to the murder.

Best regards,
Ben

[aspallek]

I can give exact departure times from the various London stations to Blackheath in January 1889 once I get home today. The times I have even allow for Saturday variances. Unfortunately, arrival times are not given so I can't say exactly how long the journey would have taken. On busy metropolitan rails trains today don't go much faster than I suspect they would have in 1888 but I think extending the travel time to 30 minutes is a safe margin. Certainly no more than 45 minutes, which would be treble today's time. Walking time from the Blackheath rail station to Valentine's is about 5 minutes.

I will post the information later today.

[Chris]

Ben

Sorry, but I think you're deliberately trying to confuse matters now.

I'm not going to waste any more time on this. Everyone can see that Druitt had plenty of time to get back for the cricket match.

[Ben]

All I'm saying, Chris, is that the issue of timing cannot help but impact on the plausibility of Druitt being responsible for the Hanbury Street murder for various reasons.

Happy to leave it there.

[Chris]

All I'm saying, Chris, is that the issue of timing cannot help but impact on the plausibility of Druitt being responsible for the Hanbury Street murder for various reasons.

Happy to leave it there.

You know very well that what I am discussing is not "timing" in general, but your specific claim that the timing was "very tight".

But trying to have a sensible discussion with you is like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling, and I'm not going to waste any more time trying.

[Ben]

You know very well that what I am discussing is not "timing" in general

I know what you're discussing, and since the timing of events impacts directly on the issue of plausibility, as Sugden observes, I think I'm justified in saying that the timing is tight to consider the proposal a reasonable one.

But trying to have a sensible discussion with you is like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling

...Which really means that you're exasperated because I'm not agreeing with you.

[Chris]

...Which really means that you're exasperated because I'm not agreeing with you.

Look.

Last night you agreed that when you said the timing for Druitt getting back from cricket matches was "very tight" you meant that he would have found it difficult to do all all that he had to do in the available time.

That seemed clear enough, but because you had already been so evasive, before I went to the trouble of suggesting some actual timings, I got you to agree that the "tightness" issue was a separate one from the psychological issue and the issue about being tired because he had been up all night. You did agree that. Here's a link to the post in which you agreed that:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=62290&postcount=48

So on that basis I went to the trouble of posting some suggested timings, which, of course, make it clear that there was plenty of time for Druitt to do everything he had to.

Naturally you can't admit you were wrong, so you've gone back to the business about being tired, and you deliberately try to muddle up the issue of the "tightness" of timing with other things that you have already explicitly admitted are separate from that issue.

That's why I say it's like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling!

[anna]

Who on earth is disputing the fact that Monty could have killed Annie,and been back in Blackheath to play cricket the next morning????


It is a very central place to move about to or from.

Andy has visited the area,so will know what I am talking about....you have to know the area to appreciate the situation,with all due respect to all.

[Sam Flynn]

Another possible source of information is "Google Maps" which will help ascertain the distance between London Bridge and Hanbury Street...

Doing so gives a rough walking-time of 57 minutes, provided one takes in the main streets en route - many of which would have been starting to get quite busy after 05:30, I'd have thought. Staying off the main streets for as long as possible, I'd have thought that we could add 5 minutes onto that, which takes us over the hour.

Taking, say, 5 minutes out to cleanse/compose oneself pushes us closer to 1h 12m. Let's allow only one such "washing break", and add another few minutes' contingency for avoidance tactics (e.g. to evade the attentions of unwanted passers-by or rozzers). I reckon that takes us to an estimated timing of just over one and a quarter hours.

Still time to make the 7 o'clock train, then, with a wee bit spare to change from (and discard) one's "foreign" clothing into more suitable apparel - so as to be inconspicuous on the train, and to blend in on arrival at Blackheath.

[Jeff Leahy]

Ben

You agreed that what you meant was that "it would have been difficult for Druitt to do all that he would have had to do between the time of the murder and the time of the cricket match".

That is simply not the case. It's just a shame you can't bring yourself to admit it.

By the way, for the record, this is what Sugden actually wrote about this:
"Druitt could have killed Annie Chapman. It would have been possible for him to have murdered her in Spitalfields at 5.30 and then to have caught a train to Blackheath and to have washed, changed and breakfasted in time to turn out on the Rectory Field by 11.30. Nevertheless, it must be conceded that bearing in mind the probability that Annie's killer had been prowling the East End streets for most of the night such a scenario does seem distinctly unlikely."
[my emphasis]

But have we established the exact time of death?...and weren't the train time tables available before the great casebook crash?

Pirate

[aspallek]

OK rail timetables for January 1889 now in hand.

Trains departed Cannon Street for Blackheath (on Saturdays) at:

0614
0730
0749

and thereafter about every 10-20 minutes throughout the morning. The was on the South Eastern Railway -- North Kent Line.

Departures from London Bridge are not given but I do know that these were the same trains as above, so they probably would have called at London Bridge only a few minutes after departing Cannon Street.

Unfortunately, arrival times at Blackheath are also not given. If it is about 12 minutes today, I think 30 minutes is a very safe estimate for 1888 given that modern trains don't run up to anywhere near full speed on busy metropolitan rail. If you want to be even more cautious you can allow 45 minutes for the journey but I think that stretches credibility.

Using 30 minutes gives us approximate arrival times at Blackheath of:

0644
0800
0819

It's a five minute walk from the Blackheath rail station to Valentine's.

Google maps gives the following walking times and distances:

29 Hanbury Street to Cannon Street Station: 1.2 miles, 25 minutes (via main roads)

29 Hanbury Street to London Bridge Station: 1.4 miles, 29 minutes (via main roads)

29 Hanbury Street to 9 Eliot Place, Blackheath: 6.1 miles, 2 hrs 6 mins.

Obviously, this walking time is predicated on modern traffic and traffic signals. Walking time in 1888 might have been a bit different but on the whole approximately the same. Also, remember that Druitt was an athlete and may have been in a hurry or anxious which could have cut the walking time considerably.

Based on these ascertainable facts, Druitt could conceivably have caught the 0614 Cannon Street train at London Bridge and arrived at Valentine's in Blackheath before 7 am. He certainly could have caught the 0730 at either Cannon Street or London Bridge and arrived at Valentines at, say, 0815.

Now the "tightness," in Druitt's movements of 8 September is what again?

[Jeff Leahy]

Thanks for that Andy..

so the time of Chapman's death is irelivant is that what we are saying?

I also understand that trains were more reliable in Victorian times

Yours Pirate

[Mort Belfry]

I hate to go all Poirot on everyone's arse, but aside from the timing have we examined the "psychology" of the crime?

Serial killers often exhibit traits around the times of their murders, a popular one being "missing work", could the same be said of hobbies and games, I would assume so.

So instead of saying would Druitt go from murdering to a cricket game, would he even have planned to murder knowing later on he was going to play?

[Sam Flynn]

Google maps gives the following walking times and distances:

29 Hanbury Street to London Bridge Station: 1.4 miles, 29 minutes (via main roads)

My original Google maps search didn't, Andy. It said 3-point-something miles, and 57 minutes' walk (see above). However, I just tried it again and a totally different answer came out (2 miles and 43 minutes). Bizarre...

[Ben]

Please do not harp on incessently and obsessively about one word that you took exception to in the podcast. That's as infuriating as it is, frankly, anorakish.

The proposition is too tight to be considered plausible, in my view.

Not tight if you're arguing in terms of the physically possible.

Just "distinctly unlikely" to use a Sugdenism, and that "distinct unlikelihood" has a great deal to do with the timing of events.

I got you to agree that the "tightness" issue was a separate one from the psychological issue and the issue about being tired because he had been up all night.

It can't be, because Druitt being tired is directly linked to the issue of the timing of the cricket match. His inevitable tiredness obviously wouldn't be an issue if the cricket match happened several days after the match, so I must clearly have misunderstood your question. If I had any inkling that you were "getting" me to agree to something with a view to "catching me out" I would have read your question less hastily.