'M. J. Druitt- said to be a doctor'

[tnb]

I have always thought it curious that Abberline got this fact so wrong. Also that he felt it important enough to mention, when supposedly Bond (and others) had long before dismissed the idea that 'Jack' had to have medical training...

Anyway this thought struck me today-

Abberline states Druitt is SAID to be a doctor. What he doesn't say is that he IS a doctor (subtle, I know) or indeed that he believes it. Was Abberline perhaps trying to tell more than he was saying here? I think it unlikely that Abberline would take information on unchecked say-so (especially relating to one of his supposed prime suspects), ie 'said to be a doctor- so must be a doctor then'?

So what is Abberline really saying? WHO exactly was it who 'said' Druitt was a doctor- and is Abberline trying to point out that while he didn't buy into it, others might have- ie the victims, perhaps?

Shot in the dark. But heh.

[aspallek]

I think you are confusing Abberline with Macnaghten. Abberline never named Druitt but he spoke of a theory involving a drowned medical student. Macnaghten named Druitt in his memorandum and in the official copy only said that Druitt was "said to be a doctor." In the private copy he kept he in indicated that Druitt was a doctor.

Farquharson is the first person we know of to point the finger of suspicion on Druitt. He said that the murderer was "the son of a surgeon" from which comment many people might have deduced that Montague Druitt himself was a doctor.

[Johnr]

" Said To Be A Doctor "

I think you are correct to raise the "said to be" point.
After all, whilst Macnaghten used those words, Dorset-born Abberline claimed familiarity with the suicided medical man theory.
And given the coincidence of Dorset Street in Whitechapel, it might have been Abberline who told Anderson or Macnaghten of a Dorset family of Druitts who had strong and lengthy ties to the medical profession! JOHN RUFFELS.

[aspallek]

I think there are several factors to be considered.

There was without a doubt a "drowned (or suicided) medical man" theory floating (excuse the pun) around Scotland Yard. Macnaghten's wording indicates a possible attempt to reconcile Farquharson's "son of a surgeon" with this elusive and shadowy theory.

The theory is also reflected in (just to name a few places): Abberline's "medical student," Farquharson's "son of a surgeon," Griffiths' comments (which merely repeat Macnaghten), Woodhall's fanciful tale which is quite obviously based on Dr. Holt, Sir Basil Thompson's history of Scotland Yard, Littlechild's belief that Tumblety had suicided, McCormick's story about Albert Bachert (which is dubious as to veracity but still demonstrates knowledge of such a suspect), and possibly Osbert Sitwell's veterinary student -- though I can't remember the details exactly of that and whether there was as suicide involved in that.

Now as to Abberline's origins, I believe he was from Blandford Forum in Dorset originally. This is not far from the Druitt home at Wimborne and is quite close to Farquharson's home of Tarrant Gunville. Is it also where the wife of John Henry Lonsdale (Katharine Carr Glyn) was from. However, Abberline would not have travelled in the same circles as the Druitts, Farquharsons, and Glyns as he was of a different social class. He would certainly have known about the Druitts however, as you indicate.

[ChrisGeorge]

Now as to Abberline's origins, I believe he was from Blandford Forum in Dorset originally. This is not far from the Druitt home at Wimborne and is quite close to Farquharson's home of Tarrant Gunville. Is it also where the wife of John Henry Lonsdale (Katharine Carr Glyn) was from. However, Abberline would not have travelled in the same circles as the Druitts, Farquharsons, and Glyns as he was of a different social class. He would certainly have known about the Druitts however, as you indicate.

Hi Andy

Yes indeed Abberline was from Blandford Forum, Dorset. As well as the Druitts, of course Dorset was also Thomas Hardy country and Sir Frederick Treves of the London Hospital was from there as well. T.E. Lawrence, aka Lawrence of Arabia, had a cottage at Cloud's Hill near Warham, and was killed on his motorcycle on a country road near there.

Although I cannot claim to be intimately knowledgeable about Blandford Forum, I have driven through it or by it as I have had a number of relatives in the Wimborne/Poole, Dorset area, several unfortunately now deceased or moved away. You are exactly correct that all these locations are fairly close to each other, and people would likely know each other. Abberline having moved away some years earlier though might not be quite "up" on Dorset society by 1888.

All the best

Chris

[amarti9]

Hi. Ive started to like Druitt as one of my personal favorite suspects. However on this issue of him being a doctor or not I have a question.

Could Abberline and others have gotten it wrong by thinking that he was a doctor when it is possible that he could have been a failed medical student?

A failed medical student isnt a doctor but one who would have some familiarity with human anatomy. Enough so that he or she could locate and remove a kidney or liver or ovaries in the dark late hours of the night?

Only speculation but I believe that I heard that both Druitt's father and brother were in the medical fields as well? Who's to say that Druitt didnt try and fail to follow in the family's footsteps and failed? Perhaps this is where Abberline's misconception about him being a doctor came in.

Is my thinking way off on this one?

[aspallek]

Hi amarti,

Unfortunately there is no record of Druitt ever studying medicine. However with his father being an obstetric surgeon it is no difficult to imagine young Montague gaining a familiarity especially with female anatomy.

[Sickert]

I always thought Montague was a barrister, his cousin Lionel was a doctor.

[Supe]

his cousin Lionel was a doctor.

True, as were Montague's father and Lionel's father. All this and much more is revealed in Adam Went's fine article "Cousin Lionel" that appears in the latest issue (Feb. No. 6) of Casebook Examiner.

Don.

[The Grave Maurice]

I always thought Montague was a barrister

Quite right. And I'm glad you didn't add the adjective "failed", as many writers do, because that simply isn't true.

[Sister Hyde]

that's right, he wasn't so much of a failure, he was a barrister AND a teacher, and although it wasn't that much of a success, it was provinding him enough to live confortably and practise cricket (he even was in the most prestigous cricket club "in the world") pardon me for putting "in the world", this way, but since i dunno that much about the sport and since i know a lot of people here are crazy about it, i don't wanna take the risk to offend them.

[Writerboy]

Hi amarti,

Unfortunately there is no record of Druitt ever studying medicine. However with his father being an obstetric surgeon it is no difficult to imagine young Montague gaining a familiarity especially with female anatomy.

I find that hard to believe. It's hardly something that would be discussed in detail in domestic situations, especially in those days.

[Jonathan H]

I agree.

That Macnaghten wrote 'said to be a doctor and of good family ...' is, at its most basic level, a line which hedges its bets.

Supposedly somebody, according to Macnaghten in the official version of report seen by nobody, verbally claimed that Druitt was a doctor -- but he was such a minor, hearsay suspect that we did not check.

Therefore he might not have been a doctor -- and Druitt wasn't.

Macnghten is careful not to commit himself to Druitt bieng a doctor, when he does just that with the version he showed his literary cronies -- who disseminated this suspect to the public but in a fictional cocoon:

In the official version Druitt is a minor suspect, yet better than Cutbush.

Really?

Better than a man who was demonstrably insane, convitced for violence against women with a knife, and who was permanently incarcerated in an asylum?!

[Jonathan H]

The Two 'Doctors'?

There is a debate going on the other site about how Macnaghten seems to have had it wrong about Ostrog too, and that's fair because his information is wildly inaccurate and incredibly slanderous.

In fact, so inaccurate that Ostrog himself would never have recognised himself in the portrait of Griffiths and subsequently in Sims.

But that is arguably the point.

Consider that neither Druitt nor Ostrog were doctors (the Russian confidence man and thief pretended to be one sometimes).

In 1894, after the 'Report(s)' was written, Ostrog was released from prison, after being convicted for larceny, because the French had confirmed his story about being in one of their asylums at the time -- was true.

Quite an embarrassment for th Yard, especially as he was guilty of everything else, the swine!

This confinment abroad also definitely exonerated Ostorg of the Whitechapel murders.

Yet Macnaghten went ahead with showing Griffiths the [alleged] 'Home Office Report' or copy of one (Aberconway') in 1898 knowing full well that Michael Ostrog was innocent -- had been proved to have had an iron clad alibi.

Mac went ahead with his description in public of the un-named Ostrog as a doctor who might have been 'Jack' knowing that both contentions were demonstrably untrue.

He was not a Russian doctor and he could no longer be considered a Ripper suspect, if he ever even had been one.

But he went ahead anyway.

Macnaghten knew Ostrog was not a doctor, and not a potential murderer. He also knew that he was a con man who had stolen valuables from his beloved Eton, once on the very day when Mac was there as an old scholar.

Putting this bounder on the list was partly a fanatical Old Etonian's revenge.

Therefore, I think that Macnaghten also knew, of course, that Druitt was no more a doctor than Ostrog, but a doctor's son (in the official version he was careful to leave himself an out: 'said to be a doctor' which he did not bother to do with the low-life thief).

Perhaps Macnaghten never knew that Ostrog was banged up abroad and was thus cleared of the murders?

Apart from being virtually impossible there is this from Mac's proxy, Sims:

'The second man was a Russian doctor, a man of vile character, who had been in various prisons in his own country and ours. The Russian doctor who at the time of the murders was in Whitechapel, but in hiding as it afterwards transpired, was in the habit of carrying surgical knives about with him. He suffered from a dangerous form of insanity, and when inquiries were afterwards set on foot he was found to be in a criminal lunatic asylum abroad. He was a vile and terrible person, capable of any atrocity.'

[Jonathan H]

On the other site from which I am banned there is this debate:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=173841#post173841

An essayist for a Ripper-zine has speculated that Basil Thompson, Macnaghten's successor at CID in 1913, may have known Druitt as a fellow student at New College, Oxford.

Also that Mac may have hidden Druitt's real profession to protect the legal fraternity.

'Case Disguised' is the theory I advocate -- in fact Mac successfully hid his entire true identity for the public and for people who knew the family, except for the basics: a tormented English, Gentile, Gentleman.

Wolf Van Derlinden has posted recently on that site that Thompson changed the reference to the Thames suicide from a Russian medical student, in the second edition of his own book, to a straight adaptation of Griffiths' bit in 'Mysteries of Police and Crime': eg. the un-named Druitt as the drowned English doctor.

Therefore Thompson had no director knowledge of Druitt from Mac, his affable predecessor, but even more telling is that he was unaware that there was a document lying in the Yard's own archive which named the drowned man -- a contradictory document which both dismissed Druitt as a minor, hearsay suspect and affirmed that he was sexual maniac believed by his own family to be Jack.