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  • John Henry Lonsdale

    I will try to paste this huge thread but it will have to be in chunks.

    http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=2&gl=uk

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    Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Druitt, Montague John > John Henry Lonsdale

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    PDAView Full Version : John Henry Lonsdale


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    Joanna7th July 2006, 07:22 PM
    Lately I have been looking into the life of John Henry Lonsdale (1855-1903) on the basis of his rather likely aquaintace with Montague Druitt. Lonsdale, during his career as a barrister had chambers at 4 Kings Bench Walk, just a few doors down from Druitt's chambers at No. 9 as well as living at 5 Eliot Cottages at some point in the 1880's, not far from 9 Eliot Place in Blackheath. After he was ordained in 1887 Lonsdale was coincidently appointed to the curacy of Wimborne Minster, Montague's home town.

    Interestingly, when I was looking through the contents of Druitt Papers (located at the West Sussex Street Record Office) on www.a2a.org.uk which consist of the letters of the family of Montague's uncle, the eminent physician Robert Druitt (1814-1883). An item of particular interest in the papers of his son Charles Druitt (1848-1900) was a newspaper cutting relating to the trial of some men for robbing J.H. Lonsdale's house in May 1887 of some of Charles's things:

    Reference: DRUITT MSS/352
    Newspaper cutting from The Salisbury and Winchester Journal and General Advertiser
    Creation dates: 14 May 1887
    Scope and Content
    With an article on the trial of some men for robbing Rev. J.H. Lonsdale's house of certain of Charles' belongings

    Sadly, the contents of the article isn't avaliable on a2a.org. However, the connection between Charles Druitt and John Henry Lonsdale is of interest. Lonsdale's ordination at Salisbury and appointment to the curacy of Wimborne Minster was only reported in The Times on 11 March 1887, three months after Charles Druitt had left the curacy of Parkstone (a village near Wimborne) to become a missioner of the Society of St Andrew near Salisbury (reported in The Times on 9 December 1886). Lonsdale and Charles Druitt could have plausably met around the time of Lonsdale's ordination at Salisbury, although Charles's apparent willingness to entrust Lonsdale with some of his personal belongings points to a longer aquaintance. Charles had been curate of Parkstone for several years before he left it in late 1886 which likely allowed him to become close to his Dorsetshire cousins including Montague, and through him become friendly with Lonsdale.

    Also, I found the report for John Lonsdale's marriage to Katharine Carr Glyn. I had speculated to myself that Lonsdale's marriage may have been the reason behind Montague's visit to Bournemouth in late October 1888, however according to the report in The Times on December 20 1888 Lonsdale was married on 18th December, a week after William Druitt learnt of his brother's dissaperance:

    The Times, Thursday, Dec 20 1888
    MARRIAGES
    On the 18th inst. At Wimborne Minster, by the Rev. John Gylby Lonsdale Canon of Lichfield and father of the bridegroom, assisted by the Rev. Carr J. Glyn, Rector of Witchampton and Hinton Parva, grandfather of the bride, and the Rev. F. Huyshe, Vicar of Wimborne Minster, the REV. JOHN HENRY LONSDALE to KATHERINE CARR, second daughter of CAPT. CARR GLYN, of Wood Leaze, Wimborne.

    Katharine's grandfather Carr John Glyn (1798-1896) who officiated at her marriage had been Rector of Witchampton since 1828, highlighting another connection between Lonsdale and the Druitt's, Witchampton being the home of Montague's mother Ann Harvey and her family, a friendship between the Glyn and Druitt families is therefore very likely. As Lonsdale was married on 18 December this may explain his absence from Montague's funeral on 10 January 1889, could Lonsdale have still been on honeymoon? Although the entry for John Henry Lonsdale in the Alumni Cantabrigenses mentions that Lonsdale was curate of Wimborne from 1887-8 he was, according to The Times appointed to his next post as curate-in-charge of Weare, Somerset until 16 May 1889, why the six month gap between posts?

    In the past some posters have remarked on Lonsdale's strange and sudden career change from barrister to priest, however from close inspection of the Alumni Cantabrigenses showed that he was likely mearly following family trandition. John Henry Lonsdale's grandfather, John Lonsdale (1788-1867), Bishop of Lichfield studied at Trinity College, Cambridge before being admitted to Lincoln's Inn on December 14 1811 and being ordained deacon and priest in 1815. His father, John Gylby Lonsdale (1818-1907) also attended Trinity College, Cambridge and was admitted to Lincoln's Inn on November 10 1841 and ordained deacon at Lichfield in 1845. Finally, John Henry Lonsdale himself also attended Trinity College, Cambridge and was admitted to Lincoln's Inn on January 17 1879, although unlike his father and grandfather before him made it to be called to the bar on November 17 1882 before going the family way and being ordained in March 1887.

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    Comment


    • #3
      8th July 2006, 06:39 AM
      Hi Joanna,

      You've beaten me to it! I found most of the same information you found but I was holding back in hopes of writing up an article for publication -- which I may still do. I somehow missed the Times notice of the exact date of Lonsdale's marriage. I only knew it was in the 4th quarter of 1888 at Wimborne Minster. I, too, wondered if it may have been the reason for Montague's visit in Oct and possibly related to his depression. But it now seems not. It does explain why J.H. Lonsdale was not invited to the King's Ball while his in-laws were.

      I would only add that Lonsdale died on 16 Feb 1903 (not yet aged 50), of what cause I do not know. He is buried in the churchyard at Fontmell Magna, where he was serving. His widow, Katharine (Glyn) Lonsdale settled back at Colehill, near Wimborne. They had a daughter, also named Katharine (or Katherine, spelling of both mother and daughter's names vary) who was married at Wimborne Minster (where else?) in about 1921 to one Kyrle Arthur Stewart Chapman, a descendant of William the Conqueror. Chapman died in enemy action during WWII. They in turn had two daughters, who if alive would be in their eighties today but I believe are both deceased. Lonsdale was reassigned from Wimborne Minster after his marriage and served at Iwerne, which was a seat of the Glyn family.

      While I think it likely that the Lonsdales and Glyns knew the Druitts, indeed almost inconceivable that they did not, I think this research rather leads to a disappointing conclusion. Previously, it had been thought that perhaps Lonsdale procured his appointment to Wimborne Minster via Druitt influence. Now we know that the family Lonsdale married into had more than enough influence in Wimborne and in Dorset in general to procure any appointment convenient. A close relationship with the Druitts is not necessary.

      Still, I would like to know the circumstances of Lonsdale's premature death.

      Oh yes, I might add that Lonsdale's uncle by marriage (his mother's sister's husband) was none other than Lord Grimthorpe, who designed the works for Big Ben.

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      aspallek8th July 2006, 07:21 AM
      Let me throw in some more puzzle pieces. Lonsdale's maternal grandfather was prominent lawyer David Jardine.

      Now there is some political intrigue. Lonsdale's father-in-law, as mentioned, was Capt. Carr Stuart Glyn, the nephew of George Carr Glyn who was the first Baron Wolverton. Carr Stuart's cousin would become the bishop of Peterborough. By 1888, Capt. Glyn had entered politics at Wimborne and we find him arguing against Home Rule in 1887. This is interesting because although her siblings were all born in England, Katharine Carr Glyn (Lonsdale's wife) was born in Ireland. Apparently, Glyn was on some sort of assignment there when his daughter was born.

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      Joanna8th July 2006, 04:19 PM
      While I think it likely that the Lonsdales and Glyns knew the Druitts, indeed almost inconceivable that they did not, I think this research rather leads to a disappointing conclusion. Previously, it had been thought that perhaps Lonsdale procured his appointment to Wimborne Minster via Druitt influence. Now we know that the family Lonsdale married into had more than enough influence in Wimborne and in Dorset in general to procure any appointment convenient. A close relationship with the Druitts is not necessary.


      Andy,

      As far as I am aware Lonsdale did not have any contacts apart from Druitt in the Dorsetshire area untill after 1887 (when he became curate of Wimborne). I would guess that it was Druitt who initially introduced Lonsdale to the Glyn family in the first place, unless of course there is evidence that Lonsdale knew the Glyn's before 1887?

      I will admit it was rather difficult to find the marriage article in The Times. The search engines on the website don't always locate every article with the name of 'John Henry Lonsdale' for example, especially if the print quality is bad. However, I figured that it would be unlikely for the marriage of the son of the Canon of Lichfield and the daughter of a prominant Dorset family not to be reported in The Times; as far as I can remember I eventually found it by searching for all mentions of Lonsdale between 1 October and 31 December 1888 therefore covering all potential dates for the marriage.

      I'm very excited to hear you're thinking of writing an article on Lonsdale, I think there is a lot more to be found out about Lonsdale and his potential links to Montague Druitt than what is posted here, this is pretty much the tip of the iceberg...

      Comment


      • #4
        8th July 2006, 07:20 PM
        By 1888, Capt. Glyn had entered politics at Wimborne and we find him arguing against Home Rule in 1887. This is interesting because although her siblings were all born in England, Katharine Carr Glyn (Lonsdale's wife) was born in Ireland. Apparently, Glyn was on some sort of assignment there when his daughter was born.

        Carr Stuart Glyn was a Captain with the 1st Royal Dragoons, according to The Times the regiment was drafted to Ireland in February 1867, arriving in April due to another Fenian uprising which was to ultimately be unsucessful:

        The Times, Monday, Feb 18, 1867
        MILITARY ARRANGEMENTS. –The continuance of the Fenian troubles in Ireland will have the effect in interfering somwhat with the military arrangements previously projected. Only one regiment of calvery, instead of two, will be moved from Ireland to Great Britain, for the presant at least; and the Royal Dragoons from Manchester will take the place of the 4th Dragoon Guards, about to proceed from Newbridge to Edinburgh, the 5th Dragoon Guards remaining in Ireland. The calvary force will thus be kept up to seven regiments – 5th and 6th Dragoon Guards, Royal Dragoons, Scots Greys, 9th Lancers, 10th Hussars, and 12th Lancers…

        The Times, Friday, Apr 19, 1867
        IRELAND
        “The head-quarters of the 1st Royal Dragoons arrived in Dublin, from Liverpool, yesterday, and on proceeding on the march to Newbridge, was preceeded as far as Richmond Barracks by the band of Scots Greys, the dismounted party, under the command of Lieutenant Walker, consisting of the 83 non-commissioned officers and men, 38 women, and 30 children.”

        Interestingly, Ireland was to be Carr Stuart Glyn's last military assignment, he retired from his military post on February 14th 1868 (reported in The Times on the 15th), maybe something he saw or experianced in Ireland prompted his early retirement from his army career?

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        aspallek9th July 2006, 03:52 AM
        Joanna,

        Thanks for these "missing" details of Carr Stuart Glyn's life. I would presume, however, that Lonsdale knew the Glyn family for some time prior to his marriage to Katharine in 1888. How convenient to have Lonsdale assigned to Wimborne while courting Glyn's daughter! Then there is the assignment to Irwene Minster, which has strong ties to the Glyn family, shortly after the marriage. Surely there could be some Druitt influence but there need not have been.

        Now if we can only find out what he died from at such a young age.

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        aspallek10th July 2006, 07:00 AM
        Here's just an interesting piece on Capt. Glyn, Lonsdale's father-in-law. No doubt where he stood on the Irish Question.

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        Joanna10th July 2006, 11:56 PM
        Joanna,

        Thanks for these "missing" details of Carr Stuart Glyn's life. I would presume, however, that Lonsdale knew the Glyn family for some time prior to his marriage to Katharine in 1888. How convenient to have Lonsdale assigned to Wimborne while courting Glyn's daughter! Then there is the assignment to Irwene Minster, which has strong ties to the Glyn family, shortly after the marriage. Surely there could be some Druitt influence but there need not have been.

        Now if we can only find out what he died from at such a young age.

        Once again, as far as I'm aware (but I could well be wrong) Lonsdale seems to have had no links to the Glyn family before he took the curacy at Wimborne in March 1887 and as he and Katharine Carr Glyn wern't married untill December 1888 he had pleanty of time to get acquainted with the Glyn family (and Katharine for that matter). I've also discovered Lonsdale's obituary in The Times, although it doesn't shed any light on the cause of his death or his personality it does mention how he acquired some of his clerical posts:

        The Times, Wednesday, Feb 18 1903.
        OBITUARY
        The REV. JOHN HENRY LONSDALE, who died on Monday at the age of 47, was the only son of Canon Lonsdale, who has been for 47 years one of the prebendaries of Lichfield Cathedral. He graduated in 1878 from Trinity College, Cambridge, and was called to the Bar in 1879. Some years later he decided to enter Holy orders and was ordained deacon in 1887 and priest in 1888, becoming curate of Wimborne Minster. In 1889-90 he was curate of Weare, Somerset. In 1890 he was nominated by the vicar of St. Michael, Lichfield, to the vicarage of Wall, near that city. He returned to Dorset in 1894, having accepted from a private patron the rectory of Iwerne-Courtney (or Shroton) with Earringdon, near Blandford. Here he was made rural dean of Shaftesbury (division 4), an office which he retained when be became in 1900, on the nomination of Lord Wolverton, rector of Fontmell Magna with West Orchard, near Shaftesbury. The funeral will take place at Fontmell Magna at 2 p.m. tomorrow.

        Lord Wolverton was of course a descendant of Carr John Glyn's brother George Carr Glyn (1797-1873) the first Lord Wolverton. And the 'private patron' of Iwerne Courtney could easily be or have links to the Glyn family. Although from the avalible evidence it would appear that only his last two assignments Iwerne Courtney (1894-1900) and Fontmell Magna (1900-3) have a definate link to the Glyn's.

        On the cause of Lonsdale's death: some obituary's and death annoucements in this period explicitly state the cause of death (e.g. consumption, perionitis) or that it occured after 'a short illness' or 'suddenly' (as in the case of Druitt's father from a heart attack), no such descriptions exist in Lonsdale's case. However, if he had died due to an accident, suicide or so forth chances are this would have been mentioned, especially since he was the son of the Canon of Lichfield. Sadly, in 1903, dying aged 47 was far less unusual than it is today, my own great-grandfather died aged 47 in the 1930's from pneumonia, although he was perfectly fit and healthy before his death it doesn't seem to have been considered all that unusual. Albeit tragic, it is perhaps unsuprising Lonsdale's death didn't excite much comment.

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        aspallek

        Comment


        • #5
          11th July 2006, 02:36 AM
          Joanna,

          Yes, I agree it is certainly possible that Lonsdale didn't meet his bride until after his assignment to Wimborne. So, he had a year and a half or so after arriving at Wimborne before he married Katharine (I'm going to spell her name this way for sake of consistency). Is this enough time in the LVP to meet, court, have a respectable engagement period, and then marry? I'm not sure.

          Perhaps I'm just being overly cautious, since I really "want" to find a relationship between Druitt and Lonsdale. Perhaps I'm bending too far the other way.

          You've managed to come up with a lot from the Times that I missed. My searches for "Lonsdale" did not turn up his marriage or his obituary -- or else I just missed them.

          I would still like to know the circumstances of his death. I agree that it was probably not something that seemed sensational or that would have been reported.

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          aspallek24th October 2006, 11:15 PM
          Being quite curious as to the cause of John Henry Lonsdale's premature death in 1903 at age 47 I bit the bullet and sent to the GRO for the entry of his death.

          When and where died: Sixteenth February 1903 Fontmell Magna R.D.

          Name and surname: John Henry Lonsdale

          Sex: Male

          Age: 47 years

          Occupation: Rector of Fontmell Magna

          Cause of death: Wound of elbow - Acute Septicoemia Certified by D.H.S. Daniell (sic) M.B. (M.D.?)

          Signature, description, and residence of informant: Sophia Lonsdale Sister present at death Lichfield (NB -- Lichfield was Sophia's residence, not the place of John's death. Sophia's name may be written in the registrar's hand rather than being her signature. However, the formation of the capital S is different).

          When registered: Nineteenth February 1903

          Signature of registrar: John Sapper (?) Registrar

          So, Lonsdale died of blood poisoning following a wound to his elbow. His death would probably have been rather sudden -- not a long illness -- but certainly nothing sinister. One mystery solved.

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          robert25th October 2006, 10:17 AM
          Andy, it may have been MB.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelo...ne_and_Surgery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelo...ne_and_Surgery)

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          aspallek25th October 2006, 03:30 PM
          Robert,

          Indeed, it is M.B. I later found Daniell listed in the Times among those upon whom the degree of Bachelor of Medicine was conferred.

          Incidentally, Sophia Lonsdale (John's older spinster sister) was quite active in poor law reform around Lichfield. She authored a book on English poor law.

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          robert28th October 2006, 03:19 PM
          Andy, Joanna

          Have we been down this road before? A Mayo-Lonsdale link :



          Dorset Record Office: Mayo Family


          The contents of this catalogue are the copyright of Dorset Record Office
          Rights in the Access to Archives database are the property of the Crown, © 2001-2006

          To find out more about the archives described below, contact Dorset Record Office (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a...ails.asp?LR=31)

          MAYO FAMILY
          Catalogue Ref. D/MAY
          Creator(s):
          Mayo family of Dorset
          Mayo, Charles Herbert, 1845-1926, clergyman of Longburton, Somerset


          FAMILY

          John George Mayo

          FILE [no title] - ref. D/MAY/F14 - date: 1847,1866
          [from Scope and Content] Prize certificates in law from University College, London, 1847; copy will of his mother, Jessica Matilda Lonsdale, formerly Mayo, born Arnold, 1866.

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          robert28th October 2006, 03:36 PM
          DRO also contains a sonnet on the ruins of Longburton vicarage, 1928, by Herbert Druitt.

          Robert

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          robert28th October 2006, 07:24 PM
          I think that Jessica Matilda ended up marrying James John Lonsdale, celebrated lawyer. Whether he was in any way related to JH Lonsdale, I know not.

          Robert

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          aspallek28th October 2006, 07:34 PM
          That link is interesting. Right now, I'm more interested in a link with Harry Wilson. I've been informed that there may have been a link between J.H. Lonsdale and HRH The Prince of Wales, i.e., the future King Edward VII. This makes sense since Lonsdale would have been a contemporary of Eddy's. Also, Queen Victoria seems to have been an admirer of Lonsdale's grandfather, who was Bishop of Lichfield.

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          Joanna

          Comment


          • #6
            30th October 2006, 10:23 PM
            Just a bit on John Henry Lonsdale's sister Sophia:

            The Times, Tuesday, Oct 27, 1936.
            MISS SOPHIA LONSDALE

            Miss Sophia Lonsdale, who died last week in her eighty-third year, was remarkable in her generation. A correspondent writes of her:-
            The daugher of the Rev. John Lonsdale, for over 50 years Canon of Lichfield, she made her mark in the city where most of her life was spent by her business capacity and readiness to undertake any work which came to hand, especially if it entailed rectifying abuses. She was absolutely fearless and disinterested, and no difficulty was too great for her to face. To her was owing the regeneration of the local workhouse, the sanitation of the city, the foundation of the High School, and the establishment of the Lichfield Charity Organization Society. She was at her best when she had some big battle to fight, and it is not too much to say that she was invariably came out victorious. Later in life she settled in London, where she was absorbed in the work of the Charity Organization Society. For many years she was a member of the Soho committee, later chairman of the Paddington committee, and, finally, on the Administrative Central Council, the chairman of which described her as one of the personalities which gave to the C.O.S. the quality of greatness. She had the power of attracting the absolute devotion of her personal friends, who remember her as the most sympathectic and delightful of companions, with an unfailing fund of humour. In her later years her chief interest was the Girls’ Diocesan Association, whose members recall her with love and reverence. Her strong sense of religion was the directing star of all her activities, and supported her through the many weary years of invalid life which preceded her death. Her memoir by her cousin, Violet Martineau, has recently been published.

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            aspallek14th November 2006, 12:07 AM
            John Henry Lonsdale's name and address appears in Henry Wilson's diary. His address is given as 5 Eliot Cottages, Blackheath which makes him practically a neighbor to Druitt at 9 Eliot Place. Lonsdale entered church work in 1887 and moved to Wimborne Minster.

            However, the Kelly's Directory for 1882 lists an "Alexander Lee" at that address. Mr. Lee is still living there in 1891. Of course, Lonsdale could have been a boarder. But interestingly, a "Mrs Lonsdale" is listed as living at "5 Seager's Cottages" in both 1882 and 1891. Lonsdale's father was still living in 1891 so this is unlikely to be his mother. Besides, "Mrs Lonsdale" is listed as a "dressmaker" in 1891.

            Coincidence?

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            davida14th November 2006, 01:25 AM
            Hi Andy
            The West Sussex records office has a wealth of material relating to the Druitts. It is mostly family correspondence. Three items however may be of interest.
            A letter from Ethel Druitt containing a newspaper cutting, 'The Salisbury and Winchester Journal and General Advertiser - 14th May 1887,' on the trial of some men for robbing the Rev. J.H. Londsdale of some of Charles' (Rev Charles Druitt ?) of certain of his belongings. ref: mss/352.
            So we know there is a Druitt/Londsdale link. Speculation please. What was Rev Londsdale doing with Rev Charles belongings?

            The second item in the archive ref DRUITT mss/468 are a packet of leaves which fell from a wreath on the coffin of HRH Albert Victor Duke of Clarence.

            The third is a letter written to Gertrude Elizabeth Druitt, in 1888, from Jabez Druitt and his wife Sophie who lived in --The Mile End Road.
            Best Wishes
            David

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            johnsavage14th November 2006, 01:57 AM
            Hi David,

            "The second item in the archive ref DRUITT mss/468 are a packet of leaves which fell from a wreath on the coffin of HRH Albert Victor Duke of Clarence."

            Have you any more information about this curious find?

            Rgds
            John

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            davida14th November 2006, 02:55 AM
            Hi John,
            I am afraid not. At least not yet. I shall try to get access to the collection when I can. At the moment all I have is the catalogue.
            Best Wishes
            David

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            Comment


            • #7
              14th November 2006, 04:11 AM
              David and John,

              I'll speculate on your interesting findings in a moment but let me comment a bit more on the Blackheath end of things. I had thought that Eliot Cottages lay to the southwest of Eliot Place -- but I think I was mistaking something called Eliot Vale Cottage(s) for Eliot Cottages. The Hare and Billet Pub is at the address of 1a Eliot Cottages and that is just east of Eliot Place, very near #9 and Druitt. At any rate I find it very interesting that Alexander Lee lives at 5 Eliot Place in 1882 and is still there in 1891 but that a Mrs. Lonsdale lives at 5 Seager's Cottages. So, no Lonsdale at 5 Eliot Cottages but a Lonsdale at the similar-sounding 5 Seager's Cottages.

              Now, as to your interesting finds. Stephen Ryder dug out this information on Charles Druitt. From the old boards:

              "Charles Druitt, M.A., born at 39A, Curzon St., 1st Nov., 1848; matriculated at Oxford, 12th June, 1867, from Exeter College; B.A., 1871, M.A. XX ordained Deacond, 21st Dec., 1871 (Ripon), and Priest, 21st Sept., 1873 (Sarum); Member of the Society of St. Andrew, Sarum, 30th Nov., 1886-8, vicar of East and West Harnham, Wilts, 1888-91, Vicar of Whitchurch Canonicorum, Dorset, 1891; died 20th, buried at Whitchurch, 23rd Oct., 1900, and of various sermons and papers. A Churchyard Cross, of Ham Hill stone, was erected to his memory at Whitchurch, Sept., 1902. He married 15th Sept., 1888, at Downton, Isabel-Majendie, second daughter of George Hill, M.A. Vicar of St. Winnow’s, Cornwall, 1864-87, and had issue: i. Isabel-Mary-Carola, born 28th May, 1890; and ii. Charles-Edward-Hobart, born 26th March, 1892. "

              Charles is of course son of Robert Druitt, Montague's uncle, making Charles and Montague first cousins. Now, Robert married Isabella Hopkinson at St. Pancras. London, in 1852, which happens also to be the birthplace of J.H. Lonsdale (in 1855 or 1856). Interestingly, Charles was married a few days after Anne Chapman's murder. In 1887, Charles was serving near Salisbury, not far form where Lonsdale would end up at the end of his life (Fontmell Magna). Lonsdale entered church work in 1887 and was posted to Wimborne Minster, so perhaps Charles was sort of a mentor to him and perhaps that is why Lonsdale had some of Charles' things. Both would have been bachelors at the time. Perhaps they were even best mates. Lonsdale would marry a local Wimborne girl, Katherine Carr Glyn in December 1888 at Wimborne Minster.

              As to the leaves from Prince Eddy's funeral, that is interesting. I don't know if Lonsdale attended the funeral but it is possible. Harry Wilson certainly did, and remember that Wilson had Lonsdale's name and address (at Blackheath) in his diary. Lonsdale may have known the Prince at Cambridge, which brings me to another interesting -- and cryptic -- point. In my research regarding Lonsdale, I e-mailed a contact in Fontmell Magna. This gentleman made the passing comment to me that he had another correspondent that was interested in Lonsdale "'because he was associated with the Prince of Wales' i.e., King Edward VII," Eddy's father. Now my contact placed "Prince of Wales" in quotes but "Edward VII" was his explanation. One wonders if perhaps it was actually the future George V, Eddy's brother, that Lonsdale was "associated with."

              All very interesting food for thought.

              Quick follow-up: I found Alexander J. Lee in the 1881 census at 5 Eliot Cottages, Blackheath with his wife, sister-in-law, and (count 'em) 6 daughters! I'll bet he didn't get to use the outhouse often! ;-) There is also one border, a female. Lee was a Solicitors Managing Clerk.

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              aspallek14th November 2006, 07:18 AM
              "Mrs Lonsdale" of 5 Seager's Cottages, Blackheath is Emily Lonsdale, aged 48 in 1881 who lived there with her mother Mary Ann and sister Jane. Born in Woolwich, she was a dressmaker. Safe to say, no relation to J.H. Lonsdale.

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              Natalie Severn14th November 2006, 10:33 PM
              Some fascinating bits and pieces hidden away in the West Sussex records office Davida! Cant wait for more information on the leaves!
              Thanks Andy and Davida for sharing this info on Druitt .
              Natalie

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              aspallek15th November 2006, 05:17 AM
              Alexander Lee is still at 5 Eliot Cottages in 1896. One gets the impression that Lonsdale must have been a lodger if he did in fact live there for a time. If Lee was a solicitors managing clerk and Lonsdale was a barrister or solicitor, does that mean that Lee worked for his boarder?

              Does anyone have access to a Kelly's Guide covering Blackheath for the years 1883-1887? Is Lonsdale listed at 5 Eliot Cottages? This could be important for establishing a link to Montague Druitt.

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              Natalie Severn15th November 2006, 09:51 PM
              Hi Andy,
              Neil Rhind whose research is highly regarded by the librarians at Greenwich who recommended his paper "Jack the Ripper ,the Blackheath Connection" and which Mr Rhind kindly sent me a copy. In it he states that Henry Wilson"s
              address book contains the address of James Henry Lonsdale,a barrister at Lincoln"s Inn.His address is given in Wilson"s book as 5 Eliot Cottages-barely a minutes walk from Druitt"s home of 9 Eliot Place.
              Best
              Natalie

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              aspallek15th November 2006, 10:38 PM
              Yes, Natalie, that address is given by Leighton and Howells/Skinner. But now I am a little suspicious since Alexander J. Lee lived at that address at least from 1881-1896. Of course, Lonsdale could have been a boarder at Lee's but it would be nice to confirm this. Seems a little odd that a barrister would lodge at the home of a legal clerk, but it could be.

              The thing is that we have only Wilson's diary to place Lonsdale at 5 Eliiot Cottages. What if Wilson was in error? I would like to confirm that Lonsdale actually did live there. It would probably be between about 1883-1887. Census won't help.

              Lonsdale does show up in the 1885 Guide "Men at the Bar" with his chambers at King's Bench Walk but it does not give a place of residence.

              What else does Rhind say about Lonsdale? Just as an aside, we tried to get Mr. Rhind to share a little of his info with us some time back. He was nice enough but adamant about not sharing his paper except at a fee that I considered rather high.

              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              Comment


              • #8
                16th November 2006, 04:21 PM
                Just another tidbit: Alexander John Lee died in 1902. He was married to Hannah Mary Kreckler (1881 census transcription mistakes her middle inital as "H").

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                chrisg16th November 2006, 04:35 PM
                Hi David,

                "The second item in the archive ref DRUITT mss/468 are a packet of leaves which fell from a wreath on the coffin of HRH Albert Victor Duke of Clarence."

                Have you any more information about this curious find?

                Rgds
                John

                Of course the listing of such an item is bound to excite us Ripperologists and send our hearts racing knowing what we do about the Royal conspiracy. However it could well have been nothing more than Royalist sentiment for a Druitt to want to keep some leaves that had come from "a wreath on the coffin of HRH Albert Victor Duke of Clarence." Or else maybe they were going to test them for DNA. . .

                Chris

                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                aspallek16th November 2006, 04:39 PM
                Of course the listing of such an item is bound to excite us Ripperologists and send our hearts racing knowing what we do about the Royal conspiracy. However it could well have been nothing more than Royalist sentiment for a Druitt to want to keep some leaves that had come from "a wreath on the coffin of HRH Albert Victor Duke of Clarence." Or else maybe they were going to test them for DNA. . .

                Chris

                Yes, Chris but the question is how he came into possession of this memento. There are a number of possible explanations -- including purchasing them from a souvenir hawker -- but we do know that Harry Wilson had a prominent seat at Eddy's funeral. Wilson is connected to Lonsdale and Lonsdale is connected to Druitt.

                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Joanna16th November 2006, 05:41 PM
                I think its reasonable to assume (especially since the 1881 census includes one lodger staying with the family) that the Lee's were in the habit of taking in lodgers that Lonsdale was indeed living there at some point during the mid 1880's. However, does anyone know where Harry Wilson's address book actually is currently? I for one would assume its in some British archive somewhere if anyone wants to check....

                Also thought it might be of use to post Alexander Lee's 1881 census entry:

                5 Elliott Cottages, Lewisham, Kent
                Head: Alexander J Lee, M 47, Blackheath Kent, Solicitors Managing Clerk
                Wife: Hannah H Lee M 34, Greenwich, Kent
                S in Law: Eleanor E Kereckler, U 36, Greenwich, Kent
                Daughters:
                Rosa Esther Lee, 12.
                Florence M Lee, 10.
                Augusta E Lee, 8.
                Emma A Lee, 6.
                Hannah E Lee, 4.
                Lena Gertrude Lee, 6 months. All born Blackheath.
                Lodger: Emma Burgess, U 24, St Johns Southwark, Surrey. Formerly Domestic Servant

                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                cgp10016th November 2006, 05:47 PM
                The thing is that we have only Wilson's diary to place Lonsdale at 5 Eliiot Cottages. What if Wilson was in error? I would like to confirm that Lonsdale actually did live there. It would probably be between about 1883-1887. Census won't help.

                An electoral register might confirm it. I checked the 1889 City of London register for Druitt a few months ago, and his chambers qualified him to vote, but his residential address was given as 9 Eliot place, Blackheath.

                Chris Phillips

                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                cgp10016th November 2006, 05:50 PM
                However, does anyone know where Harry Wilson's address book actually is currently? I for one would assume its in some British archive somewhere if anyone wants to check....

                According to Howells and Skinner it was held by Trinity College Library, Cambridge.

                Chris Phillips

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                Joanna16th November 2006, 05:52 PM
                In relation to my last post, according to Howells and Skinner, Harry Wilson's diary is at Trinity College Library, Cambridge. They do however mention it took awhile for them to decipher Wilson's 'perculiar shorthand'.

                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                aspallek16th November 2006, 08:38 PM
                Thanks Joanna. Just to point out two errors in the census transcription:

                Lee married Hannah Mary Kreckler so her middle initial and her sister's surname are apparently mis-transcribed.

                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                aspallek16th November 2006, 09:04 PM
                An electoral register might confirm it. I checked the 1889 City of London register for Druitt a few months ago, and his chambers qualified him to vote, but his residential address was given as 9 Eliot place, Blackheath.

                Good idea, Chris. Do you have access to one for some time around 1885-6? My idea about Kelly's wouldn't work after all since that would undoubtedly just list Lee as the owner of the house. Lonsdale was probably a boarder but there is now enough doubt in my mind that I'd like to know for sure.

                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Natalie Severn

                Comment


                • #9
                  16th November 2006, 10:01 PM
                  Hi Andy,
                  Neil Rhind"s paper doesnt say anything else about Lonsdale except that he was a Trinity man.
                  Best
                  Natalie

                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  aspallek16th November 2006, 10:46 PM
                  Hi Andy,
                  Neil Rhind"s paper doesnt say anything else about Lonsdale except that he was a Trinity man.
                  Best
                  Natalie

                  Well then, it appears that Joanna and I have (independently) conducted "ground-breaking" research on this interesting fellow. Still a few gaps to fill in. Still would like to have that Blackheath address confirmed.

                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Joanna17th November 2006, 05:25 PM
                  Just posting a couple of pieces of circumstantial evidence to support the idea that Lonsdale was lodging with the Lee's at some point during the 1880's. In the 1881 census John Henry Lonsdale is listed as a law student lodging at 56 Oxford Terrace, London. It appears, according to Familysearch.org that his entry has got mixed up with those for Number 57 (also a lodging house). But I assume his landlady is as follows:

                  1881: 56 Oxford Terrace, London.
                  Head: Sarah Robinson W 55, Weybridge, Surrey [Lodging House Keeper]
                  Daughter: Sarah K Robinson U 21, Wolton, Kent.
                  Servant: Florence E Bulmer U 18, Kingsland Rd, N.E. [Domes Serv]
                  (Lodger?): John H Lonsdale U 25 St Pancras, Middlesex [Law Student BA]

                  Looking at the other residents of 1 to 5 Eliot Cottages in the 1881 census I found (heads of household) at no. 1, Mary Jarret a 'lodging housekeeper'; at no. 2, Charles Bronsdon, a carpenter; no.3, Ann Tickner, a housekeeper; and at no.4, James Pollock, a consulting engineer. Three out of the five Eliot Cottages households (including the Lee's) had lodgers or boarders living with them in 1881. I also found this snipet from the Times relating to a previous resident/lodger at 5 Eliot Cottages:

                  The Times, Tuesday, June 25, 1878
                  Classified Advertising
                  A YOUNG SWISS desires an ENGAGEMENT as TEACHER for BOYS, in an English family. He teaches French, German, Italian, and the different branches of good instruction. Address Mr. E. Bornet, 5, Eliot-cottages, Blackheath, London.

                  Considering Mr. Bornet's nationality, profession and social class I guess it is far more likely he was a lodger rather than the owner of 5 Eliot Cottages in 1878. Could anyone dig up any evidence that Alexander Lee was resident at 5 Eliot Cottages before 1881? I reckon its very likely considering himself, his wife and daughers were all born in the Blackheath/Greenwich area. If so, there is pleanty of evidence to prove that the Lee's took in lodgers, and it is highly likely Lonsdale was one of them.

                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  cgp10017th November 2006, 07:31 PM
                  Do you have access to one for some time around 1885-6? My idea about Kelly's wouldn't work after all since that would undoubtedly just list Lee as the owner of the house. Lonsdale was probably a boarder but there is now enough doubt in my mind that I'd like to know for sure.

                  Coincidentally I happened to be looking at some City electoral registers today, and checked those for 1885 and "1885-86" for Lonsdale.

                  He wasn't listed in that for 1885, but in the 1885-86 one he appeared as: Lonsdale, John Henry; qualifying address: 1 King's Bench walk; description: Chambers. His residential address was also given as 1 King's Bench walk.

                  This is puzzling, particularly given that Howells and Skinner say that his chambers were at 4, not 1, King's Bench Walk. I think the qualifying date for that register would be July 1885, so apparently he was resident in his chambers then.

                  Probably the P.O. Directories would clarify whether he moved from 4 to 1 KBW or vice versa. I suppose if he only lodged at Blackheath he wouldn't be likely to be listed there, but it would be worth checking just in case.

                  Perhaps he was at Blackheath before moving to King's Bench Walk c. 1884/1885. It would be nice to have some confirmation that he was there, and if so when, from another source.

                  Chris Phillips

                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Joanna18th November 2006, 07:36 PM
                  Just a thought: do we have any inclination of how sucessful (or not) Lonsdale's first career as a barrister was? I haven't been able to find any cases with Lonsdale involved in the Times (or reported anywhere else. Obviously this doesn't prove he didn't have any cases of course). If Lonsdale was less than successful at the Bar maybe this prompted him to take holy orders? Surely moving to Blackheath would be far less convienient than living in London proper if all of his work was centered around the law courts? This is purely speculation here but if Lonsdale wasn't making enough money from his law career, maybe like Druitt he decided to supplement his income by trying his hands at a bit of teaching? After all Blackheath does seem to have had an awful lot of schools...

                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  robert

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    18th November 2006, 08:55 PM
                    And another question : do we have Lonsdale's sponsors (or whatever they're called) as a barrister? It would be interesting if one or both of them was shared by Druitt.

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Joanna18th November 2006, 11:12 PM
                    Robert,

                    According to Montague Druitt's application to the Inner Temple in 1882 (posted by DavidA in the Handwriting thread) his sponsors were Henry Tindal Atkinson (a local Dorsetshire worthy) and Nicholas Paliologus (25 in 1881 and living in Charlton). I doubt either of them sponsored Lonsdale as would have in the former been known to and the latter too young to have sponsored Lonsdale in 1879.

                    Going back to my original question; I think that Lonsdale's career in law is an area that needs some serious looking in to. It seems to have been some sort of family tradition to be admitted to the bar in the Lonsdale family. Both John Henry Lonsdale's father, John Gylby Lonsdale and his grandfather John Lonsdale were admitted to the bar at Lincoln's Inn in 1841 and 1811 respectively, however neither was ever called to the bar, both being ordained instead: John Lonsdale in 1851 and John Gylby Lonsdale in 1845. For the record John Henry Lonsdale was admitted to Lincoln's Inn on January 17, 1879 and Called to the Bar on November 17, 1882. I guess that if Lonsdale was Called to the Bar he was more serious about a career as a barrister than either his father or grandfather had been, especially since he stuck to it for around four or five years, however his family history does raise some questions.

                    How long could a briefless barrister stay in chambers if he failed to bring in any income? Begg seems to think that Druitt would not have retained his place in chambers if he had not and Druitt only qualified three years before he died. I think that looking into Lonsdale's law career could answer many questions about him, such as his motivations into going into a second career in the church, was it more about money than morals?

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    johnsavage19th November 2006, 02:55 AM
                    Hi Joanna,

                    Druit of course was not a briefless barister as some suthors have made him out to be. In late November 1888 he appeared in the high court in the matter of an appeal regarding rent.

                    The case was reported in The Times, and you should be able to locate it in the newspaper archives here at Casebook. Alas, I cannot remember the exact date, but it would be the 20 something of November.

                    Rgds
                    John

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    robert19th November 2006, 09:20 AM
                    Hi Joanna and John

                    There was also a case for breach of promise. I don't know its precise whereabouts on the site, but I remember it showed Monty as capable of a nice line in humour. Plus, the money he died possessed of seems to show that he was doing fairly nicely as regards his legal career.

                    A couple of years ago I transcribed the directory details for 9 KBW, and if I remember rightly Monty was listed there for 1889, which suggests that he had registered himself as being there some time near the end of 88 and expected to be there for at least one more year.

                    I still wonder whether Henry Tindal Atkinson sponsored Lonsdale. I agree that we need more info on Lonsdale's legal career.

                    Robert

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Joanna19th November 2006, 11:13 AM
                    John, Robert,

                    I didn't mean to imply that Druitt hadn't had any briefs. What I meant was that part of Begg's original case for Druitt having had a more successful legal career than was previously believed was that Druitt would have been thrown out of his chambers if he had not had any legal success whatsoever.
                    This article by Martin Fido tells the story of how Druitt's legal career was rediscovered: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acad...ue8/fido8.html


                    I was asking how long a barrister could keep his place in chambers if he hadn't had any briefs? I was pondering this point because of Lonsdale's apparent lack thereof, not Druitt's.

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    robert19th November 2006, 11:35 AM
                    Yes, understood, Joanna. It may be possible to find out by contacting an address that I wrote to on the old Boards - they infirmed me that KBW was part-residential. I'll try to find it. If I remember right, it was John who gave me the link.

                    I would say that if Lonsdale was thrown out for lack of cases, then his heart wasn't in it - there was no reason for him to fail.

                    Robert

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    robert19th November 2006, 11:45 AM
                    Joanna, it was Dr Clare Rider, on this thread.
                    http://casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/11257.html (http://casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/11257.html)

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Natalie Severn19th November 2006, 07:10 PM
                    Point of information:
                    In his paper, "Jack the Ripper- The Blackheath Connection",Neil Rhind [see above] states
                    that Lonsdale"s landlord at Eliots Cottages was Alexander Lee,a solicitor"s clerk-and the "owner" of the cottages.
                    Natalie

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    johnsavage19th November 2006, 11:31 PM
                    Hi Joanna,

                    I seem to have misunderstood your post, my apologies. Thanks for the link you gave, most interesting, especially as the case at Christchurch is the one to which I wa refering. I did not realise that this was first unearthed by D.S. Goffee, who did such great work on Ostrog, so I have learnt something .

                    Thanks once again.

                    Rgds
                    John

                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    aspallek

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      21st November 2006, 06:41 PM
                      Coincidentally I happened to be looking at some City electoral registers today, and checked those for 1885 and "1885-86" for Lonsdale.

                      He wasn't listed in that for 1885, but in the 1885-86 one he appeared as: Lonsdale, John Henry; qualifying address: 1 King's Bench walk; description: Chambers. His residential address was also given as 1 King's Bench walk.

                      This is puzzling, particularly given that Howells and Skinner say that his chambers were at 4, not 1, King's Bench Walk. I think the qualifying date for that register would be July 1885, so apparently he was resident in his chambers then.

                      Probably the P.O. Directories would clarify whether he moved from 4 to 1 KBW or vice versa. I suppose if he only lodged at Blackheath he wouldn't be likely to be listed there, but it would be worth checking just in case.

                      Perhaps he was at Blackheath before moving to King's Bench Walk c. 1884/1885. It would be nice to have some confirmation that he was there, and if so when, from another source.

                      Chris Phillips

                      I only have time for a quick note now. I'll come back to Lonsdale later. The 1885 publication Men at the Bar gives Londale's chambers as 1 King's Bench Walk. It gives no residence. Of course, he could have changed his chambers at some point.

                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      aspallek21st November 2006, 10:13 PM
                      I believe I have just put 2 + 2 together. Somehow I had missed this earlier. John Henry Lonsdale was a classmate at Eton of none other than Melville Leslie Macnaghten, both graduating in 1871. [Evelyn Ruggles-Brise came along just a hair later].

                      Lonsdale knew Montague Druitt's family (cousin Charles), since some of "Charles' things" were stolen from Lonsdale. Lonsdale almost certainly knew Montague Druitt for reasons well known and pointed out in this thread.

                      Now remember that Macnaghten wrote "from private information I have little doubt but that his own family believed him to have been the murderer." Private information perhaps from a former Eton classmate and friend of the Druitt family?

                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Natalie Severn21st November 2006, 10:39 PM
                      Yes Andy,they seem to have been crossing paths quite a lot.Also if Lonsdale went into the church in Druitt"s hometown in 1887 Is it not just possible Druitt went to him and made some sort of confession or act of contrition?
                      Natalie

                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      cgp10021st November 2006, 10:47 PM
                      The 1885 publication Men at the Bar gives Londale's chambers as 1 King's Bench Walk. It gives no residence. Of course, he could have changed his chambers at some point.

                      I had a chance to check some directories today in the library at the National Archives.

                      In the Post Office Directory (commercial section), Lonsdale appears at 1 King's Bench walk between 1885 and 1887, but is absent in 1888. In 1884 he is at 3 Harcourt buildings; in 1883 he is absent.

                      In the law section, the same information is given, and he is described as "eq. dr. & conv.", which apparently means equity draftsman and conveyancer. No residence is listed apart from chambers. Residences are listed for a number of other barristers, but obviously not for all who were resident elsewhere, as none is listed for Druitt.

                      The library held Kelly's Suburban directory only for 1884 and 1888 (no intermediate years). Alexander Lee was listed at 5 Eliot Cottages, Blackheath, in both of these, but no mention of any others at that address.

                      It looks as though Howells and Skinner made an error when they gave the address of his chambers as 4 King's Bench Walk.

                      Harcourt Buildings is also in the Temple, and as he was there as early as 1884, it's a little puzzling that I didn't find him in the electoral register for 1885. However, if he took chambers there late in 1883, perhaps he would have failed to qualify for the 1885 register (qualifying date July 1884), through not having a year's residence.

                      Chris Phillips

                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      robert22nd November 2006, 10:51 AM
                      Hi Andy

                      Your link sounds plausible, although we will always have a problem with the question of whether Lonsdale would have felt comfortable divulging anything that Druitt had told him in his capacity as a priest.

                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      aspallek22nd November 2006, 04:58 PM
                      Robert,

                      And plausible is all it can remain for the present unless evidence of a further link can be found. But it is rather exciting to me as this is a new area of inquiry with regard to the case.

                      A word on the confessional. Strictly, only a genuine confession is sealed by confidentiality. If Montague's cousin Charles had mentioned to Lonsdale that the family suspected Montague of being the Ripper, this would not be sealed. It may still be regarded as confidential and private information, however.

                      Would Montague have gone to Lonsdale as his confessor? That's a difficult question and an interesting one. It hinges on several unknowns. How well did Montague and Lonsdale know each other? Were they friends? In my experience, one is generally less willing to make confession to a confessor who is also a friend. It is generally preferred to go to someone with whom there is greater distance. But they may not have been personal friends. I wonder whether Montague still held membership in his home parish of Wimborne Minster or whether he now held membership in the local parish at Blackheath. Would he be required to go to his own priest/vicar/curate for confession? Lonsdale was curate at Wimborne in the Autumn of 1888. My hunch (and that's all it is) is that Montague, if he was the murderer, did not confess this to Lonsdale but Lonsdale may have had his own suspicions and may also have been privy to Druitt family suspicions.

                      Chris,

                      Thanks for your work in attempting to ascertain Lonsdale's residence. I feel comfortable that he lodged at 5 Eliot Cottages, Blackheath for at least a short time in the 1880's. Yet I would still like to see first hand corroboration of this. The only evidence we have for it is Wilson's diary, which could possibly be in error.

                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      robert22nd November 2006, 07:13 PM
                      Andy, I was about to write back that it has the advantage of providing a double source for Macnaghten's statements (the family for the memorandum, and later on, Lonsdale for the autobiography). But then I was struck by something.

                      If Lonsdale had been the recipient of a confession - or anything approaching a confession - would he have sat back and said nothing while the Sun arraigned Cutbush as the murderer (assuming he knew of the articles)? It's true that Cutbush wasn't going to actually be charged with the murders. Still, if Lonsdale was privately convinced of his innocence, could he have just said nothing, not even a hint to Sir M? Cutbush's family had to be considered too - they couldn't have welcomed the Ripper connection.

                      Maybe Lonsdale did say something to Macnaghten in 1894. But then, if we're to believe Macnaghten, something else must have been said later on - something a little more definite.

                      Robert

                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      aspallek

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        22nd November 2006, 07:28 PM
                        Robert,

                        I must admit that I don't quite follow your train of thought. If Lonsdale was the source of Macnaghten's "private information" I rather think he spoke to Sir Melville considerably before 1894. Lonsdale would certainly not have mistaken Druitt's profession so I must presume that Macnaghten received his information some time before penning the memo to allow time for his memory to play tricks on him. It's quite possible that Lonsdale had mentioned the medical men in the Druitt family and over the course of time Sir Melville just got the information muddled.

                        I don't know how concerned Lonsdale would have been about Cutbush's reputation. If he were actually going to be charged with the Ripper murders it might be different but as you say, that was not the case.

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        robert22nd November 2006, 08:03 PM
                        Hi Andy

                        This is getting a bit complicated.

                        If Lonsdale was the source for the private info, and was merely reporting the family's suspicions, then that seems to devalue Lonsdale's role to that of a conduit rather than an independent source adding weight to the family's suspicions.
                        It would be nice to have Lonsdale saying something to Macnaghten after 1894, to firm up Macnaghten's views. The question in my mind was whether Lonsdale would have sat silent while Cutbush was accused - bearing in mind that Lonsdale was a clergyman.

                        Robert

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        aspallek22nd November 2006, 09:11 PM
                        If he was involved, whether Lonsdale added his own suspicions regarding Druitt or was merely a conduit for Druitt family suspicions is something that I don't think will ever be known. I would envision Lonsdale telling Macnaghten about the Druitt family suspicions shortly after Sir Melville joined the Met, probably sometime in late 1889 or in 1890. He undoubtedly spoke of the medical background of the Druitt family. During the intervening years, Macnaghten merely got the information mixed up. Whether Lonsdale spoke to Macnaghten about Druitt sometime after 1894 is another mystery we may never know. By the time Macnaghten writes his autobiography, Lonsdale has been dead for more than 10 years so he can't go back and check his source. This may account for MM seemingly getting further away from the true picture of Druitt in his book. [Lonsdale is not mentioned in MM's autobiography, by the way].

                        I see your point about not defending Cutbush's reputation but I don't find it that surprising. In order to exonerate Cutbush publicly, Lonsdale would have to humiliate the Druitt family. Since Lonsdale was serving in Dorset, where the Druitts were an important family and presumably still his friends, one can understand why he might choose to protect the Druitts rather than Cutbush.

                        Macnaghten also said that Druitt was "sexually insane." Might Lonsdale have been the source of that information as well?

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        robert22nd November 2006, 09:42 PM
                        Hi Andy

                        Possibly. But here we're back with the question of the meaning of the phrase. If I remember right, very few examples of it have been discovered. If it meant simply "homosexual," then I find it odd that Sir M would choose this expression in a confidential memorandum. Let's face it, Druitt, Lonsdale, Sir M and Sir M's superiors were products of the public school system. Within that elite world, you never knew whether the person you were addressing was another one of those "sexually insane" people!

                        Public consumption, of course, was different - there, homosexuality had to be anathematised.

                        Robert

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        aspallek22nd November 2006, 10:04 PM
                        Another thing is starting to fall into place. Remember the article from The Bristol Times and Mirror of Wednesday, February 11, 1891 (two days before the Coles murder):
                        'I give a curious story for what it is worth. There is a West of England member who in private declares that he has solved the mystery of "Jack the Ripper." His theory - and he repeats it with so much emphasis that it might almost be called his doctrine - is that "Jack the Ripper" committed suicide on the night of his last murder. I can't give details, for fear of a libel action; but the story is so circumstantial that a good many people believe it. He states that a man with blood-stained clothes committed suicide on the night of the last murder, and he asserts that the man was the son of a surgeon, who suffered from homicidal mania. I do not know what the police think of the story, but I believe that before long a clean breast will be made, and that the accusation will be sifted thoroughly.' (Thanks to Grey Hunter for the text).

                        Lonsdale served as vicar at Wall in Staffordshire in the West Midlands from 1890-94, not far from Litchfield where his grandfather was longtime Bishop. Not exactly "the West of England," but close. He also had been curate in Somerset in 1889-90. Somerset is most definitely in "the West of England." Could Lonsdale also be the source of this rumor? It would not be too difficult to imagine Lonsdale blabbering about the Druitt family suspicions to certain trusted higher-ups who were perhaps members of his parish or friends of his family. Then, perhaps in the days after the Coles murder, it is not hard to imagine Lonsdale contacting his old classmate Macnaghten.

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Natalie Severn22nd November 2006, 10:26 PM
                        I must admit Andy that the passage you quote above is the one that has always made me think there was something to the Macnaghten memo.To me it suggests the possibility that Druitt"s chambers were searched and blood stained clothing was found,maybe by his brother, among his effects.And here they got it right,he was the son of a surgeon,not a doctor himself.
                        It also seems very possible that a member of the Druitt family may have gone to Lonsdale to confide their fears-and if he was already dead they wouldnt have wanted such scandal to come out.
                        Natalie

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        robert

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          22nd November 2006, 11:00 PM
                          Well, this would tie in with Sir M's tendency to have the murderer out of the way as soon after Nov 9th as possible.

                          The MP for Lichfield in 1891 was I think Sir John Swinburne

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          aspallek22nd November 2006, 11:22 PM
                          Well, this would tie in with Sir M's tendency to have the murderer out of the way as soon after Nov 9th as possible.

                          The MP for Lichfield in 1891 was I think Sir John Swinburne

                          Right you are! And Richard Paget was MP for Somerset, at least in that general time period.

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          robert23rd November 2006, 08:06 AM
                          Andy, this site should help in the identification of west country MPs, provided the info on it is accurate,

                          http://www.angeltowns.com/town/peerage/ (http://www.angeltowns.com/town/peerage/)

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          mayerling23rd November 2006, 05:54 PM
                          Has anybody traced Paget's family - is he related to the famous London surgeon Sir James Paget? And if so, how closely?

                          Urgently requested answer - if possible.

                          Jeff

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          robert23rd November 2006, 07:14 PM
                          Not very closely, if at all, by the looks of this, Jeff.

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          aspallek24th November 2006, 03:42 AM
                          Andy, this site should help in the identification of west country MPs, provided the info on it is accurate,

                          http://www.angeltowns.com/town/peerage/ (http://www.angeltowns.com/town/peerage/)

                          Thanks for that useful link, Robert.

                          Lonsdale was curate at Weare, Axbridge in Somerset in 1889-90. Somerset had various constituencies by this time. Axbridge is apparently in Somerset Wells. Here are the MPs in 1891:

                          Richard Horner Paget, Somerset Wells
                          Henry Hobhouse, Somerset East
                          Evan Henry Llewellyn, Somerset North
                          Frederick Edward Gould Lambart, Somerset South
                          Edward James Stanley, Somerset Bridgwater
                          Thomas Henry Thyne, Somerset Frome
                          Charles Isaac Elton, Somerset Wellington

                          One other note:

                          Lonsdale's maternal grandfather was lawyer David Jardine. I note there is an Ernest Jardine who was MP from Somerset East in 1910-18.

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          mayerling24th November 2006, 07:10 AM
                          Hi Robert,

                          Thank you for the two biographical squibs for Sir Richard and Sir James. Still it would be nice to know if there was some family connection (close cousins or something like that). Sir James Paget was not only a significantly important London based doctor, but he was fascinated by crime. He was the man who made the quip about the Pimlico Poisoning Case: "Now that she [Adelaide Bartlett] has been acquitted and proven innocent of killing her husband, in the interest of science she should tell us how she did it!". His son (who predeceased him) John Paget wrote an interesting book about famous unsolved mysteries, PARADOXES AND PUZZLES.

                          Best wishes,

                          Jeff

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                          Joanna26th November 2006, 07:31 PM
                          I believe I have just put 2 + 2 together. Somehow I had missed this earlier. John Henry Lonsdale was a classmate at Eton of none other than Melville Leslie Macnaghten, both graduating in 1871. [Evelyn Ruggles-Brise came along just a hair later].


                          I'm not entirely sure this is correct. Lonsdale was born in 1855 to Macnaghten's 1853, plus the Alumni Cantabrigenses states he didn't enter Trinity until Feb 18, 1873 which would surely put him a couple of years behind Macnaghten?

                          Secondly, as a Brit I would clasify the 'west country' or the 'west of England' as the Dorset/Somerset area, to me Staffordshire is very much in the midlands.

                          Despite the above, Lonsdale as a source of Sir Melville's 'private information' is definately a very intriuging possibility, especially if you take the article in the Bristol Times and Mirror inton account. Considering that Bristol is on the Gloucestershire/Somerset border, geographically speaking I would say Somerset is a very likely area for this 'information' on Druitt to have emerged from.

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                          robert26th November 2006, 09:19 PM
                          Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but doesn't that phrase "clean breast" suggest the idea of someone unburdening himself of information, or "coming clean"? If the murderer was supposed to be dead, then who does that leave? The family?

                          Robert

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                          Joanna26th November 2006, 11:49 PM
                          Robert,

                          I think if you put the 'clean breast' comment back into the article you get a better idea what the writer is getting at:

                          "...I do not know what the police think of the story, but I believe that before long a clean breast will be made, and that the accusation will be sifted thoroughly."

                          From what I can make out, the writer does not appear to believe that the rumours involving Druitt have been directly reported to and have not been investigated by the police. Therefore I'd guess that 'clean breast' refers to the Druitt suspicion being officially reported to the police.

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                          • #14
                            27th November 2006, 01:43 AM
                            I'm not entirely sure this is correct. Lonsdale was born in 1855 to Macnaghten's 1853, plus the Alumni Cantabrigenses states he didn't enter Trinity until Feb 18, 1873 which would surely put him a couple of years behind Macnaghten?

                            Secondly, as a Brit I would clasify the 'west country' or the 'west of England' as the Dorset/Somerset area, to me Staffordshire is very much in the midlands.

                            Despite the above, Lonsdale as a source of Sir Melville's 'private information' is definately a very intriuging possibility, especially if you take the article in the Bristol Times and Mirror inton account. Considering that Bristol is on the Gloucestershire/Somerset border, geographically speaking I would say Somerset is a very likely area for this 'information' on Druitt to have emerged from.

                            Thanks for that, Joanna. At the very least we can say they would have been at Eton at the same time even if not in the same class. The Eton School Register for 1871-1880 lists them both under the year 1871 (Macnaghten on p. 5; Lonsdale on p. 10). Both are listed as "Upper School -- Fifth Form." See below for entries.

                            I agree on you definition of "the West of England." I'm not English but I did research the term and found that it applies most narrowly to the area that would include Somerset, where Lonsdale was curate in 1889-90. I would almost bet that the West Country MP in question was one of those I listed above.

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                            robert27th November 2006, 09:02 AM
                            Hi Joanna

                            You may be right - I'm not sure.

                            By the way, can you libel the dead? I'd always believed that you couldn't, but the issue came up a few weeks ago and someone said that you could. I can't remember where the posts are now.

                            The point of course being that if libel was involved, then was the paper wary of libelling the suspect, or the suspect's friends/relatives?

                            Robert

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                            aspallek27th November 2006, 05:41 PM
                            I'm not familiar with the terminology of British schooling, which is quite different in America. Would someone with more familiarity please elucidate for me? What does it mean that Lonsdale and Macnaghten were both "Upper School -- Fifth Form" in the listing for 1871? Does this mean they were classmates that year?

                            Another interesting note: Macnaghten's residence is given as 32 Warwick Square at the time of this book's publication (1907). That's where the census of 1891 had him, so he apparently lived there for some time.

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                            robert27th November 2006, 06:42 PM
                            Andy, I never went to public school, so the terminology they use in these places is quite as baffling to me as it is to you.

                            John Betjeman in speaking of his Marlborough days mentioned "big fire" and "little fire." It's another world.

                            Robert

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                            Natalie Severn27th November 2006, 07:13 PM
                            Hi Andy,
                            I have just checked with my spouse who went to Latymer Upper School, Hammersmith.He said it simply means post eleven /secondary.
                            If they were both in the fifth form it probably means they were class mates,though its possible there were two or more fifth form classes,meaning they may have been placed in different classes in the same year.It depends on how big the fifth form was.
                            Natalie

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                            Joanna27th November 2006, 07:39 PM
                            I'm not familiar with the terminology of British schooling, which is quite different in America. Would someone with more familiarity please elucidate for me? What does it mean that Lonsdale and Macnaghten were both "Upper School -- Fifth Form" in the listing for 1871? Does this mean they were classmates that year?


                            Actually, today I just happened to be looking at another edition of Eton School Lists 1853-1892 which has the lists of students at the school. Both Macnaghten and Lonsdale were there at 1868 and 1871 Elections. It would appear the school was divided into Sixth Form, Fifth Form, and thereafter various letters of the alphabet; for example Macnaghten is listed in group G in 1868, and simply Fifth form in 1871. Lonsdale is in group L in both 1868 and 1871. I would guess that 'G' and 'L' are Macnaghten's and Lonsdale's respective classes and those listed in the sixth and fifth form were in their senior year at the school.

                            Also as someone who albeit British is still confused by public school terminology, could anyone explain what 'election' means in this context?

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                            aspallek27th November 2006, 08:07 PM
                            Thanks Joanna and Natalie for your input. I know exactly where Latymer School is in Hammersmith. I passed by there on my jaunt to Hammersmith and Chiswick earlier this year. I think the presence of these schools in Hammersmith is something to be considered when asking why Druitt chose to travel there on December 1.

                            Perhaps the reason for Lonsdale and Macnaghten being in the same class (or year) at Eton despite being different ages has something to do with Macnaghten's being brought up in India.

                            I'm smugly glad to hear that you Brits are in as much confusion as I over the terminology. You know, here in America "Public School" means something entirely different. "Public School" here refers to a taxpayer funded school which must accept any child and which is attended free of charge. Most Americans attend public schools. I know that in Britain it refers to what we in America would call a "private school."

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                            robert27th November 2006, 10:02 PM
                            Joanna, here's a link to one kind of election they had at Eton. Not sure if this is Big Election or Little Election but anyway...

                            http://met.open.ac.uk/GENUKI/big/eng...ton/Index.html (http://met.open.ac.uk/GENUKI/big/eng...ton/Index.html)

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                            robert

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              27th November 2006, 11:10 PM
                              Or it might relate to the entry of scholars into the college.

                              http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:g...25202006).pdf+ eton+college+election+of+scholars&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=c lnk&cd=4 (http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:g...25202006).pdf+ eton+college+election+of+scholars&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=c lnk&cd=4)

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                              Jane6th January 2007, 05:41 PM
                              I have recently been researching the life of John Lonsdale for my mother, who is his granddaughter and, incidentally very much alive. It is a very strange feeling to read other people's speculations about ones own family!
                              My mother is the second daughter of Katherine Granville Martineau Lonsdale and Kyrle Arthur Chapman.

                              Unfortunately as John died so young there are no living family members who actually knew him but I have discussed the points you are debating with my mother and may have a few things of interest
                              1) John died of septicaemia from an infected wound on his arm which he received during an accident whilst felling trees. The wound was extremely deep and his wife managed to stem the bleeding herself whilst a doctor was fetched.
                              2) Kitty, as his wife was known had a house built for her in Colehill where she lived for the rest of her life. The house was known as The Further House and is still there; it can actually be seen from the by-pass and is easily recognised by very distinctive windows.
                              3) Move of profession - John, as you correctly identified followed the same route as both his father and grandfather and although he spent longer at the bar before ordination there is not question that the change in profession was do to anything other than religious conviction. Both he and Kitty were deeply religious.
                              4) John was a very fit and healthy individual, whilst at university he was an accomplished athlete and won the very prestigious Trinity Mile race. This is the race depicted at the start of the film Chariots of Fire.
                              5) Influential friends - If John's placements required assistance beyond his own reputation (which was in itself fairly considerable) it would almost certainly have come from his own father, The Cannon of Lichfield, who in fact survived John. The Glyn family was also an extremely powerful local influence being one of the largest landowners in the area. Kitty's Uncles owned Gaunts and Fontmell Magna itself at the time.
                              6) Paget connections - one of the threads you were following led you to the Paget family, one of the Somerset MPs you identified. The Glyn and Paget family, and incidentally the Chapman family have many marriages into the Paget family through out several generations including Kitty's sister who was married to Mark Paget on 19 April 1898.
                              7) Edward VII - The Glyns and therefore John moved in Edwards circle. In fact John's sister Fanny was married to Edmund Beckett, 1st Baron of Grimthorpe who, as well as you rightly mentioned designed the clock workings of Big Ben, shared a mistress, Mrs Alice Keppel, with Bertie for many years. A bit of an interesting aside, Edmund was actually and architect by profession and only interested in clock making as a hobby. He won a national competition to design the most accurate clock, which is Big Ben.
                              8) Kitty's grandmother, Lady Collier was also a close friend of The Royal family.
                              9) As far as I have been able to trace there is no family connection with the Mrs Lonsdale of 5 sager Cottages.

                              I hope that this information helps fill in a few of the gaps. I am afraid I can not help with the Blackheath address debate as my mother has no knowledge of this. I am also sorry to tell you that there is no family tales or speculation around a Ripper connection. John undoubtedly knew and associated with many of the key people you have identified but my research into the family has made it very clear what a relatively small and interconnected group the landowning class was at this time.

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                              aspallek6th January 2007, 07:04 PM
                              Wow!!! Thanks very much, Jane for that valuable information! As you can undoubtedly tell, I have become rather fascinated with the life of John Henry Lonsdale and this is very interesting and pertinent information. It is amazing how much we did manage to find out from sources on the internet.

                              I presume your mother is Vivien Chapman, then? Glad to hear she is alive and well, I presume. I suppose she is in her eighties.

                              Might it be possible for you to scan an post a picture of your great-grandfather? I am very curious as to what he looked like. I also hope to visit his grave at Fontmell Magna later this year when I visit Dorset. Incidentally, when I referred to assistance from influential friends in his placements this was no criticism of John. We all seek assistance of whatever influential friends we might have, to go along with our own merits. I suppose I am so intrigued with Lonsdale because we share the experience of studying for one profession and then changing to church work, which was also the traditional profession of my family (I had studied business administration originally).

                              Finally, I just want to make absolutely clear that my discussion of John H. Lonsdale in no way implicates him in any guilt regarding the Whitechapel murders. I am only seeking to establish an acquaintance with the Druitt family and possibly with Macnaghten.

                              Is there a biography of him or the Lonsdale family? Do you know whether he left any papers that are still in existence?

                              Once again, thank you very much, Jane! I'll be sending you a PM via this forum.

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