Tweet
Originally posted by dougie
View Post
-
The matter of hushing up information is, I believe, an important one. Montague's cousin James Druitt, a solicitor, was coroner in Dorset of an area including Bournemouth. I recently found a news article which described a coroner's inquest conducted by none other than William Harvey Druitt, Montague's brother, though I've never found mention that he was a coroner as well. The point is that William would have known how such inquests work and probably would have possessed the knowledge and influence to manipulate the inquest into his brother's death. In fact, we see him do this when he testifies that Montague had no other relative, a detail that is clearly false. This is a crucial finding because it calls into question the accuracy of the whole of William's testimony. -
Aspallek,
Well, if Druitts family did indeed "hush things up" it would certainly explain a few things.Guilty or not,it would appear that Druitt was in the frame at some time or another,and it seems inconceivable to me that Macnaughton would be the only one who held those suspicions.Yet there is no record whatso-ever that I know of ,of any police enquiry into Druitts behaviour ,no matter how minor those enquiries might have been. The suicide note interests me somewhat also, wouldnt, generally speaking ,the whole of the suicide letter be read out at an inquest?...and not just a short summary?Has anyone other than the Druitt family ever read the full contents?
As youve said ,Williams false testimony on one issue might make some wonder about his motives.
regardsLast edited by dougie; 09-23-2008, 05:41 PM.Comment
-
When I say that William Harvey Druitt tired to "hush things up" at Montie's inquest this may well have been only in order to protect the family from the scandal of suicide and mental illness. It may have had nothing to do with suspecting him as the Ripper. However, in light of Macnaghten's comment regarding family suspicions, the door is open for that possibility as well. The point is that William's testimony must be regarded with the utmost caution because he had the motive, means, and opportunity to falsify evidence. One thing that raises an alarm to me is that the news account says that William "produced" the note from Montie. The image I get is of him pulling it out of his pocket. No provenance, no chain of custody regarding this "evidence." The police did not have it in their possession. We must regard it very cautiously. It could have been fabricated by William himself.Originally posted by dougie View Post
We don't know whether the whole text of the letter was read at the inquest or not. Unfortunately, we only have a newspaper account -- one that seems rather sloppily written at that. The transcript has been lost.Comment
-
Just thinking to myself here,but if William Druitt was prepared to "bend the truth" to protect the family from the scandal of montys mental state and suicide.....what lengths would he have gone to to protect the family name if Druitts suicide note contained something really nasty? Interesting thought,and one I believe that could,or might be the key to Macnaughtons suspicions.Im probabley wrong again ,as Im apt to be but.......who knows?
regardsComment
-
Dougie,
Of course that is a possibility, too. We just can't know what all William was hiding but he clearly falisfied his testimony and he probably had the means and opportunity to manipulate things significantly.Comment
-
Totally off the top of my head as I'm reading threads in this Suspect section and don't yet know the whole story; but if William was so anxious to protect the family honour, might he have arranged to meet Monty at Hammersmith (at a rowing club even! LOL) having heard through the usual Establishment channels that Monty was under suspicion?
And if they did meet and discuss the matter, and William drew a confession out of Monty, might he not have persuaded him to jump into the Thames - and even helped him do so? There seems to me to be no reason for Monty to travel to Hammersmith, other than to meet *someone* there...
On another tangent, the matter of diagnosing mental illness at this remove is very vexed, as different syndromes and conditions can involve very similar symptoms. Severe depression as suffered by Ann Druitt is of course one aspect of bi-polar syndrome, and also can be a severe disease in itself. Bi-polar illness at its other extreme can involve 'voices', hallicinations, and violence. The treatments for such illness in those days - mainly morphine based - would in themselves often lead to extreme lethargy and mood swings, and fairly often provoked suicides (cf the death of Lizzie Siddal, wife of Rossetti, some years earlier).
Another disease leading to severe and often very sudden incapacity with attendant depression and lethargy is ME, and before it was diagnosed very recently as a viral illness it would very likely have been seen as some kind of mental illness; the more so since symptoms include intermittent mental confusion* and 'the staggers'! - I know as I suffer from it myself (it's linked to Epstein-Barr virus btw, which stays in the system). With lingering viral illness no doubt very common in Victorian England, albeit undiagnosed, this would not surprise me as one element in many so called 'mental' illnesses of the time
Both Schizophrenia and severe depression leading to suicide do tend to run in families, and any emergence of symptoms in the younger generation might well provoke intense fear and an 'unbalancing' of the mind, if a parent was by then incarcerated.
* symptoms of which include typing one word when you had another in mind - hence my numerous edits!Last edited by Sara; 11-24-2008, 06:59 PM.Comment
-
Hi Sara,
A very well-reasoned post! Here are some reactions:
1. While we don't know the reason for Montie's visit to Hammersmith/Chiswick on Dec. 1, I tend to agree that the most likely scenario is that he was off to meet someone. We have to guess at the possibilities. Harry Wilson at his house in Chiswick (The Osiers) is a possibility due to their mutual acquaintance John Henry Lonsdale. Druitt's body was found just yards from there. One wonders why he would buy a ticket to Hammersmith then, however. The Tuke's asylum is another possibility but the same question about Hammersmith applies. Ravenscourt Park would have been the logical destination. I have wondered whether perhaps Montie was off to apply for a new teaching position at one of the many prestigious schools in the area. St. Paul's, for example, was at the time very near the Hammersmith station. I've also wondered if there could be a connection with the parish church in Chiswick, perhaps with the vicar or perhaps paying last respects to someone buried in the churchyard, since he was found so very near the church. I see no reason for him to meet his brother at Chiswick, however.
2. I have seen the case notes on Ann Druitt provided by her doctor. From these notes I have no doubt she was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. You do raise an interesting point about such symptoms being inducted by Victorian-era treatment of other mental conditions. I suppose that is a possibility. However, suicide did apparently run in the family. Not only had Ann attempted suicide earlier, but Montie's sister Georgiana later committed suicide as an elderly woman. That's three suicides/attempts in two generations.
Sorry, but what is "ME?"Comment
-
ME also known as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome:
Sorry if I didn't make it clear I do understand that Ann's disease was Paranoid Schizophrenia; I was just making the point that some of those 'depressive' sydromes, which do tend to be hereditary, are easily confused even nowadays
At least one person I know (knew rather) who suffers from schizophrenia was reputedly 'interfered with' by her father as a child (info from her close family)
I wonder in Druitt's case, re his sacking, if he didn't get involved that summer when the school was in recess in one of those intense semi-romantic relationships which were so common in upper-class male mileus of the day? - and it may well have spilled over into the physical. Young men and boys of that period had little outlet then for their intense emotions and physical urgings, and unless they resorted to eg prostitutes or family servants, they were more or less bound to relate to one another. Such relationships were extremely common up to eg the 1960 when everything relaxed a bit!Comment
-
A job interview which went badly, perhaps because of his dismissal from Valentine's school and the latter's possible failure to grant Monty a reference, might have had a sudden depressing effect on Monty.Comment
-
Agreed; and any such whiff of scandal would of course probably lead to dismissal from chambers and rule out a career at the Bar, so his future might well suddenly seem very bleak. In a depressive personality that would be quite enough to precipitate a very sudden plunge into 'suicidal melancholia'
The first of the two photos of him in the Photo Archive is very 'Brideshead' isn;t it - he looks just sort to indulge in romantic flings with adolescents! None of which makes him a likely JtR of courseComment
-
Hi Sara
I wasn't implying that Monty had improper relationships with his pupils. He [I]may[I] have done, but there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest it.
There are plenty of other possible explanations for Monty's dismissal. We just don't know what happened.Comment
-
I think there would hardly be time for any such scandal to have effected Montie's job search by Dec. 1 as he was only dismissed on November 30. It is possible, of course, that Montie's inquiries at St. Paul's, Lattimer's, etc., were met with "not hiring" responses, which could have further depressed him.
I'm not so sure such a scandal would have jeopardized his legal career. Such indiscretions were often tolerated in the upper classes and it is likely that Valentine would not have made the matter public for reasons of his own best interests.Comment
-
No but he might have thought it would! - and from my own experience (two barristers in the family, one a judge) it would be very difficult to hush up any scandal; and anything criminal as opposed to just indiscreet would almost certainly debar any candidate for Silk etc. I agree there was probably a great deal more 'closing ranks' and hushing up in those days howeverComment
-
Yes but do not forget one thing: it would not be in Valentine's interest to divulge such an indiscretion. This is precisely the reason such matters were tolerated. What probably would have happened is that the boy would have told his parents who would have worked out an agreement with Valentine that Druitt would be dismissed in exchange for their silence on the matter.
However, I emphasize that there is no evidence to support any such indiscretion on Druitt's part.Comment
-
Hi All,
On tv recently, an expert in depression claimed that one symptom is: "a tendency to explain negative events as if you were the cause of them".
I did wonder if a sensitive soul like Monty could have been dwelling on the plight of the wretched unfortunates down Toynbee Hall way, who had no choice but to go out and take their chances with the ripper. Could he have felt a heavy responsibility for not being able to do anything with his relative wealth and privileged position to stop the rot?
As he descended deeper into his own private hell, and the murders continued, is it possible that he deluded himself into taking on a greater personal burden of guilt for these very negative events that were happening at the 'wrong' end of town, and beyond his power to do anything about? If he confided such thoughts to a family member, might this, combined with his suicide shortly after Mary's murder, have left the impression that he had been hinting at an even deeper personal involvement and being out of control?
Something - or someone - managed to persuade Macnaghten that Monty's family had reason to believe he was the murderer.
Love,
Caz
XLast edited by caz; 12-09-2008, 04:58 PM."Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov
Comment
Comment