Cutbush - Too Easily Dismissed As A Suspect?

[Aethelwulf]

I looked into him and found him lacking.

this is one of the points I was making. look at what we know about bury, the points I posted, if he is lacking then i believe this case can never be solved. by that i mean we probably know most of the main points about the main suspects. none of them are proven post mortem mutilators, if they were i think we'd know by now. is it likely a new suspect will turn up like bury, i seriously doubt it. as i said, i think dismissing bury means the bar is set impossibly high. also the copy cat theory obviously falls flat for bury, because what would a copycat do without fail - cut her throat. we know he thought about it (see below) but ultimately it was the incisions of the lower body that were his fantasy. the method of killing was by the by the by.

in a case as unusual as this, who are we looking for - someone with form for the same who was there at the time. there is only bury.

the happy couple in the honeymoon period only a week after their wedding:

She screamed for help and I went into their room I found him kneeling on her in bed, he had a table knife in his right-hand, and was apparently about to cut her throat

[The Macdonald Triad]

That's not correct though. He calmly walked into the police station and said his wife had killed herself and attempted to talk his way out of it, and it almost worked. There is no evidence he was delusional or unstable. He apparently spent his time in prison writing a memoir of his early life. He had lived with the body for 5 or 6 days and had obviously given it some thought. If he left, everyone knew he had arrived from the east end and would have been committed to a life on the run and I suspect he would ultimately have been tracked down. It may seem odd but I can see how he thought he was playing the best option. Also I think it is a blind alley to pin your theories on lines that Jtr would have definitely done this or done that, and acted this way or that and not like this. we see this with BS man and stride - i recall one poster saying no, JtR defo wouldn't have done that.

i will say, show me a more convincing and likely suspect? there isn't one.

police and tourist money? come on that's just daft.

i suggest any further discussion is posted across to one of the bury threads.

No need to go to another thread as I am drawing comparisons between who I perceive as copycats. Cutbush and Bury. Someone else brought up Jane Beadmores killer. I believe the press influenced these copycats as it does to this day. They have gone from being cosigned to oblivion like any average Joe to being attached to an infamous serial killer. It's that simple for me. And I've never dismissed Bury "out of hand " I looked into him and found him lacking. Doesn't mean I'm right. He just doesn't feel right for me. And if you want to know whom I think are better suspects, they're on my profile.

[Aethelwulf]

Bury killed his wife then presented himself to the cops all delusional.

That's not correct though. He calmly walked into the police station and said his wife had killed herself and attempted to talk his way out of it, and it almost worked. There is no evidence he was delusional or unstable. He apparently spent his time in prison writing a memoir of his early life. He had lived with the body for 5 or 6 days and had obviously given it some thought. If he left, everyone knew he had arrived from the east end and would have been committed to a life on the run and I suspect he would ultimately have been tracked down. It may seem odd but I can see how he thought he was playing the best option. Also I think it is a blind alley to pin your theories on lines that Jtr would have definitely done this or done that, and acted this way or that and not like this. we see this with BS man and stride - i recall one poster saying no, JtR defo wouldn't have done that.

i will say, show me a more convincing and likely suspect? there isn't one.

police and tourist money? come on that's just daft.

i suggest any further discussion is posted across to one of the bury threads.

[The Macdonald Triad]

I’m not at home at the moment so I don’t have any books with me Mac so I could be misremembering but I can’t recall any mention of Cutbush being a drinker.

Call it a hunch. Some people are perfect angels sober but when drunk they do a Jekell and Hyde and split personalities. It's also hard to tell if they are drunk because they may be educated and be able to not slur or give an outward appearance of drunkenness. I am one of those people except I don't murder people when pissed, I get drunk and disorderly and scream at cops and their mothers. Thankfully I live in a high crime city so when I sober up they dismiss the charge.

[The Macdonald Triad]

you know i like to get my say in on Bury and I think Mac T's certain assessment that Bury 'exhibited the same [copycat] behaviour' is, well, ridiculous. It is no light thing to just brush off Bury when you take everything into account. It makes me think, just how high do most people want to set the bar to have a credible or even very likely suspect? i'm sure most people know the main points but a quick recap might be worthwhile

• the main point being, as you said, the signature similarity of a series of incisions dividing the muscles and running obliquely down to the genitals. the following similarity in particular, is hard to just brush away as nothing, as most do:
  • Ellen: ‘On the inner side of the right labium was a wound 2 inches in length, penetrating the skin. Beginning about an inch behind the anus was an incised wound running forwards and to the left, into the perineum, and dividing the sphincter muscle’
  • Eddowes: ‘The incision went down the right side of the vagina and rectum for half an inch behind the rectum'
• of course we know he did other things that are similar or have been suggested for the C5, those being:
  • blow to the head
  • strangulation
  • murder in the early hours of the morning ~2 am i think the neighbours heard screams
  • victim found wearing only a chemise
  • he burnt her clothes in the fire
  • if we include the tabram there is also is use of penknives
  • chalk messages in a vertical block structure, said to be in a good school boy hand, with spelling and grammar errors
  • use of prostitutes
• and of course Bury isn't some random that turned up in dundee without a connection to whitechapel. we have:
  • location in Bow, travelled in out of whitechapel for sell sawdust and drink. several accounts of him assaulting ellen in whitechapel throughout 1888
  • police discovered he had behaved like a madman when he returned home later in the day on the day chapman was killed. they could not account for his whereabouts (missing from home) for some of the murders
• in 1891 the belief still held in Scotland that bury was the ripper: 'July 4, 1891 issue of the Dundee Courier: “the Dundee authorities are still of the opinion that the William Henry Bury who died in Dundee at the hands of the common hangman was no other than the much spoken of ‘Jack-the-Ripper’” (from bury website)
• some very plausible handwriting similarities between some of the main ripper letters, which should be considered alongside the fact that bury was said to be able to write in several different hands
• what do some serial killers do when the heat is on: a runner. and we have bury inventing a pair of jobs in dundee, forging the job offer letter and leaving. and there are no further whitechapel murders that are unanimously believed to be the ripper.
• finally, not liked by many, but there is an extremely close match, practically point for point, between bury and type of man the fbi believed was the ripper

so, if this man is dismissed out of hand, just how high is the bar set? it may never be proved but i find it irresistible that bury was the ripper. i mean, compare the above against what we know of every other suspect. cutbush may be interesting but it is not even a borderline close comparison.

and back to herlock's good post on cutbush himslef

Bury killed his wife then presented himself to the cops all delusional. Jack killed strangers and stayed hidden. Also who cares what Scotland or Dundee thinks about it? It can be argued that they're just doing the Loch Ness Monster dance to gain notoriety and tourism money.
Another point, it is possible he wrote JTR letters but so what? A lot of nutters were writing letters. Doesn't make them the ripper.
I will agree however Bury has more going for him than Cutbush evidence wise. But stick to your instincts, you may be right. I'll stick to mine as well.

[Aethelwulf]

fair enough a well reasoned post.

I would just ad re Bury, he actually has a similar SIG (post mortem mutilation of the mid section)as the ripper. and as you know the sig is not as flexible as MO with serial killers.

you know i like to get my say in on Bury and I think Mac T's certain assessment that Bury 'exhibited the same [copycat] behaviour' is, well, ridiculous. It is no light thing to just brush off Bury when you take everything into account. It makes me think, just how high do most people want to set the bar to have a credible or even very likely suspect? i'm sure most people know the main points but a quick recap might be worthwhile

• the main point being, as you said, the signature similarity of a series of incisions dividing the muscles and running obliquely down to the genitals. the following similarity in particular, is hard to just brush away as nothing, as most do:
  • Ellen: ‘On the inner side of the right labium was a wound 2 inches in length, penetrating the skin. Beginning about an inch behind the anus was an incised wound running forwards and to the left, into the perineum, and dividing the sphincter muscle’
  • Eddowes: ‘The incision went down the right side of the vagina and rectum for half an inch behind the rectum'
• of course we know he did other things that are similar or have been suggested for the C5, those being:
  • blow to the head
  • strangulation
  • murder in the early hours of the morning ~2 am i think the neighbours heard screams
  • victim found wearing only a chemise
  • he burnt her clothes in the fire
  • if we include the tabram there is also is use of penknives
  • chalk messages in a vertical block structure, said to be in a good school boy hand, with spelling and grammar errors
  • use of prostitutes
• and of course Bury isn't some random that turned up in dundee without a connection to whitechapel. we have:
  • location in Bow, travelled in out of whitechapel for sell sawdust and drink. several accounts of him assaulting ellen in whitechapel throughout 1888
  • police discovered he had behaved like a madman when he returned home later in the day on the day chapman was killed. they could not account for his whereabouts (missing from home) for some of the murders
• in 1891 the belief still held in Scotland that bury was the ripper: 'July 4, 1891 issue of the Dundee Courier: “the Dundee authorities are still of the opinion that the William Henry Bury who died in Dundee at the hands of the common hangman was no other than the much spoken of ‘Jack-the-Ripper’” (from bury website)
• some very plausible handwriting similarities between some of the main ripper letters, which should be considered alongside the fact that bury was said to be able to write in several different hands
• what do some serial killers do when the heat is on: a runner. and we have bury inventing a pair of jobs in dundee, forging the job offer letter and leaving. and there are no further whitechapel murders that are unanimously believed to be the ripper.
• finally, not liked by many, but there is an extremely close match, practically point for point, between bury and type of man the fbi believed was the ripper

so, if this man is dismissed out of hand, just how high is the bar set? it may never be proved but i find it irresistible that bury was the ripper. i mean, compare the above against what we know of every other suspect. cutbush may be interesting but it is not even a borderline close comparison.

and back to herlock's good post on cutbush himslef

[Harry D]

He just doesn't cut the mustard for me. But sure, I would definitely read any new evidence because he's a better suspect than many others. I just can't get by the copycat aspect of his backdoor stabbings. It stands to reason while the initial Leather Apron scare was going on Jack would start to get groupies. You can't swing a dead cat in here without hitting them lol. Cutbush was a groupie copycat in my opinion. Bury exhibited the same behavior. I suspect he himself wrote the graffiti on his doors saying he was Jack the Ripper. I also suspect alcohol played a major part with these copycats.

Also, include William Waddle in Durham as another Ripper-inspired copycat.

[Abby Normal]

He just doesn't cut the mustard for me. But sure, I would definitely read any new evidence because he's a better suspect than many others. I just can't get by the copycat aspect of his backdoor stabbings. It stands to reason while the initial Leather Apron scare was going on Jack would start to get groupies. You can't swing a dead cat in here without hitting them lol. Cutbush was a groupie copycat in my opinion. Bury exhibited the same behavior. I suspect he himself wrote the graffiti on his doors saying he was Jack the Ripper. I also suspect alcohol played a major part with these copycats.

fair enough a well reasoned post.

I would just ad re Bury, he actually has a similar SIG (post mortem mutilation of the mid section)as the ripper. and as you know the sig is not as flexible as MO with serial killers.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m not at home at the moment so I don’t have any books with me Mac so I could be misremembering but I can’t recall any mention of Cutbush being a drinker.

[The Macdonald Triad]

He just doesn't cut the mustard for me. But sure, I would definitely read any new evidence because he's a better suspect than many others. I just can't get by the copycat aspect of his backdoor stabbings. It stands to reason while the initial Leather Apron scare was going on Jack would start to get groupies. You can't swing a dead cat in here without hitting them lol. Cutbush was a groupie copycat in my opinion. Bury exhibited the same behavior. I suspect he himself wrote the graffiti on his doors saying he was Jack the Ripper. I also suspect alcohol played a major part with these copycats.

[Abby Normal]

I agree he needs more research if one hasn't already. I have and eliminated him because of the MO discrepancy. The same way I eliminated George Chapman. Chapman is a prime example to me how the police of the time really had no clue. Such as Abberline thinking Chapman was the Ripper. I've never heard of the turpentine thing before. Cutbush impresses me as a pisshead. Getting drunk and wandering around being psychotic. A lot like Bury, I sense he implicated himself for attention. However one thing about him that can't be denied is that he's always getting caught and being remembered in places. Such as when he escaped from the loony bin and told a few witnesses he was being pursued as JTR. Cutbush would have stood out if spotted. He was a muppet. The whole reason the newspaper probably attacked him is to attack the police who were still being excoriated for Trafalger Square.

hi mac
I dont buy the whole MO discrepency thing. the way I look at it, its a plus for a candidates validity as a suspect, if it involves some sort of crime against the same type victim and or attack. serial killers change their MO depending on their personal circs. Bundy was unraveling at the end and changed his MO. they never would have caught the boston strangler based on just his rapes, the GSK is another example, and the list goes on.

the fact that cutbush was attacking women with a knife far out weighs the any dissimilarity in MO INMO. He was clearly losing it at the end there, so perhaps could explain it.

the main check mark against cutbush is, like Bury and other police suspects, there is no physical connection to any of the ripper deeds. That being said, he has alot going for him IMHO, and like herlock said, a definitive research/book needs to be done.

[The Macdonald Triad]

I’d say that profiling isn’t an exact science though not without it’s uses. He was a deeply disturbed man, obsessive and vindictive, certainly violent and certainly violent toward women, he had a reason for hating prostitutes (at least in his own mind because he believed that one had given him syphilis), he owned knives that he didn’t need for any constructive reason including a large Bowie knife, he worked in the East End/ Whitechapel and so knew the area, he had anatomical knowledge and obsessively drew mutilated women, he worked but could never hold down a job for any great length of time door to his poor timekeeping, his own mother (whose throat he tried to cut) and his aunt both said that he used to spend nights wandering the streets and often came home covered in mud and blood (entering the house by scaling a fence/wall at the back of the house so that he could use the back entrance) and when Race searched his room he found bloodied clothing covered in turpentine pushed up the chimney. And when Race questioned him he denied any knowledge of the East End despite working there for several years. Race suspected him of being the ripper and, if it’s correct, so did a prosecutor and solicitor.

If you compare that to most suspects then that surely makes him at least a reasonable one? Certainly one requiring further research and a more thorough book? Also, it looks like the Cutbush that committed suicide wasn’t actually his uncle according to research though I’m unsure how certain we are?

I agree he needs more research if one hasn't already. I have and eliminated him because of the MO discrepancy. The same way I eliminated George Chapman. Chapman is a prime example to me how the police of the time really had no clue. Such as Abberline thinking Chapman was the Ripper. I've never heard of the turpentine thing before. Cutbush impresses me as a pisshead. Getting drunk and wandering around being psychotic. A lot like Bury, I sense he implicated himself for attention. However one thing about him that can't be denied is that he's always getting caught and being remembered in places. Such as when he escaped from the loony bin and told a few witnesses he was being pursued as JTR. Cutbush would have stood out if spotted. He was a muppet. The whole reason the newspaper probably attacked him is to attack the police who were still being excoriated for Trafalger Square.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Cutbush was a suspect in a time before profiling. He doesn't fit the M.O. Besides if I remember right, him stabbing women in their rear ends was a copycat move on his part. Someone else was running around before him doing the same thing. It's also very cowardly, attacking from behind. Jack was bold, social, and invisible.

It is suspicious that Cutbushs Uncle topped himself off. But even the suspicion could have been too much for an Englishman of that era.

I’d say that profiling isn’t an exact science though not without it’s uses. He was a deeply disturbed man, obsessive and vindictive, certainly violent and certainly violent toward women, he had a reason for hating prostitutes (at least in his own mind because he believed that one had given him syphilis), he owned knives that he didn’t need for any constructive reason including a large Bowie knife, he worked in the East End/ Whitechapel and so knew the area, he had anatomical knowledge and obsessively drew mutilated women, he worked but could never hold down a job for any great length of time door to his poor timekeeping, his own mother (whose throat he tried to cut) and his aunt both said that he used to spend nights wandering the streets and often came home covered in mud and blood (entering the house by scaling a fence/wall at the back of the house so that he could use the back entrance) and when Race searched his room he found bloodied clothing covered in turpentine pushed up the chimney. And when Race questioned him he denied any knowledge of the East End despite working there for several years. Race suspected him of being the ripper and, if it’s correct, so did a prosecutor and solicitor.

If you compare that to most suspects then that surely makes him at least a reasonable one? Certainly one requiring further research and a more thorough book? Also, it looks like the Cutbush that committed suicide wasn’t actually his uncle according to research though I’m unsure how certain we are?

[The Macdonald Triad]

Cutbush was a suspect in a time before profiling. He doesn't fit the M.O. Besides if I remember right, him stabbing women in their rear ends was a copycat move on his part. Someone else was running around before him doing the same thing. It's also very cowardly, attacking from behind. Jack was bold, social, and invisible.

It is suspicious that Cutbushs Uncle topped himself off. But even the suspicion could have been too much for an Englishman of that era.

[Herlock Sholmes]

thanks! well thats a contemp police officer that suspected of him of being the ripper-thats got to count for something. and a careful reading of the MM, Mac dosnt reject cutbush, just favors the other three over him.

I don’t know anything like enough detail Abby and there are parts of Bullock’s book that can’t be trusted but I definitely think that Cutbush has more going for him as a suspect than most. A good, well-researched book is what we need. Whether that likely is another thing.