Broadmoor Archives finally open

[Vigilantee]

I see we lost some posts in the server switch, fortunately I saved most, will repost

[Natalie Severn]

As my post to Jake was lost,so I will reiterate it. Jake provides a lower section of map showing The Minories viz the lower end where Cutbush bought one of his knives.
However The Minories begins [and did so in 1888 too] ,where Houdsditch leaves off ie at the other side of Aldgate/Aldgate High Street. Now this is the area that interests me most with regards to the reference Macnaghten makes to Cutbush having worked as a clerk and traveller for the " Tea Trade at The Minories". I would like to know whether this Tea place was at the Upper end of The Minories near Houndsditch, or at the lower end where he bought one of his knives.Incidently ,I am pretty sure he also bought a knife in Houndsditch itself as well during his travels up and down Houndsditch/Minories!-----It was so clearly a patch of Whitechapel he knew rather well!

[Vigilantee]

Posted by Jake L
Nats,

Given that the space between Minories and Crutched Friars consisted mainly of Tea WHs, I consider this to be a bit of a stretch.

The Knife discussed in the Lloyd's piece (3rd May 1891) was bought in Union Row, Minories on the 7th of March.
Whether they're different knives or whether MacNaghten just got the place (Houndsditch) and the time (Feb '91) wrong and we're talking about the same knife is anybody's guess .

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Posted by Natalie Severn

Jake, point accepted The visuals are great, many thanks for these.

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Posted by Natalie Severn

Jake,
I have just rechecked the 1894 ordnance survey map and what I said about The Minories seems correct viz the stretch of High street termed Aldgate/Aldgate High Street divided [and still divides] The Minories from Houndsditch/Bevis Marks.
What your section of map posted above shows is that the shop where Thomas Cutbush made his purchase of a knife is further down The Minories from the junction referred to.
However we dont actually know where Thomas Cutbush worked as a clerk at The Minories,Macnaghten simply says it was "he worked as a clerk and traveller in the Tea Trade AT THE MINORIES. Well it could have just as easily have been situated at the upper end near Mitre Square as a few hundred yards further down couldnt it?
Best
Norma
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Posted by Vigilantee

An interesting side issue to the Cutbush involvement with the Tea trade is that the industry was dominated by Freemasons due to its necessary former connection with the British East India Company (a institution founded by Masons whose ex members still owned the Tea plantations even during the Raj). Perhaps that's why he can push another employee down the stairs and remain in employment till his promptness slides (according to a Sun report we have no reason to deny)! Or maybe that just emphasises Victorian Capitalist criteria? Though also given that the Maidstone Cutbushes are also in the Property business (see Cutbush Trust) and Kearley of Kealey and Tonge is also recorded as a Builder and Property Developer (uncontentiously Masonic trades), maybe problem members of the family got easy jobs as clerks with friendly businesses.
There's also the fact of Masonry in the Police (see my recent post in the Police Officials section) which might bring 'Uncle' Cutbush into the picture quite nicely...

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Posted by Vigilantee

It seems to me that anyone wanting to build on the circumstantial evidence against Cutbush would want to make the connection between the shop and the Mitre Sq warehouse (if thats where he worked) obvious and so would loosely use the term 'in the Minories' and be reasonably accurate. Mac may have simply read that in a report.

Given the Sun says he was employed in Whitechapel, could he have been transfered after the assault? And are there many companies with properties at both locations?

Posted by Vigilantee

As regards to the Minories, does anyone have a map of the district considered the
Minories in the Victorian age? If the Minories road can be said to stretch to Houndsditch/Bevis Marks and the district is adjacent to it, Mitre Square is on the borders of it? But to the naked eye the district would be defined by its nature (shops and warehouses?) rather than its post codes, and I'm sure who ever used the term the Minories wasn't a postman...
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Posted by Natalie

Vigilante,
What you say about the Masons may well be the reason Thomas Cutbush was allowed to slip from view between 1888 and 1891.I am pretty sure that Supt."Uncle" Charles Cutbush was a Mason as was Macnaghten. Macnaghten was also "in Tea"[East India Company] and came back from India to become a police chief at Monro"s suggestion----Monro had met him in India and was a very close friend of Macnaghten.
Wheels within wheels.It may possibly some of the reluctance of a police officer such as Macnaghten to get himself involved in an investigation that involved other Masons or fellow "tea chaps"---who knows,the old school still tie operates strongly,and I bet it operated even more strongly in those days.
Best
Norma

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Posted by Vigilantee

I think thats a plausible pattern, I go more into the East India Company Mason links and Masonic 'factions' in the post on the Police Officials thread

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks for reposting that Vigilantee.
The Minories is/was simply a street,like Commercial Street or Houndsditch.I have a Victorian map beside me -The Ordnance Survey map of Whitechapel,Spitalfields and Bank 1894.It shows "The Minories as just a fairly long street stretching from Aldgate High Street to Tower Hill.That is exactly as it is today.

[Vigilantee]

Thanks for reposting that Vigilantee.
The Minories is/was simply a street,like Commercial Street or Houndsditch.I have a Victorian map beside me -The Ordnance Survey map of Whitechapel,Spitalfields and Bank 1894.It shows "The Minories as just a fairly long street stretching from Aldgate High Street to Tower Hill.That is exactly as it is today.

And it was also once a district, one of the Liberties of the Tower, an important distinction. Not sure of its status now or in Victorian times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minories

[Vigilantee]

Hmmmmm, on further study I'm coming to the conclusion that THE Minories, as opposed to Minories (the road) originally meant the area. And this was way down where Tower Gateway DLR is, according to that Wiki article. Unless there's evidence the road was called the Minories and not just Minories I might have to change my mind on the Mitre Sq connection

[Vigilantee]

On the other hand the Sun said this:

'This man was employed in several offices, in none of them for a long time; and in every case his dismissal came from such irregularity as one would expect in the case of such a man. One of the most common of these irregularities was his constant irregularity of hours. He had begun at an early age that system of night waking and stopping in bed late in the daytimes, which finally developed into his turning night into day, and working under the protection of darkness his fiendish crimes. At the time when he committed the Whitechapel murders this tendency had so far developed that he spent most of every day in bed'

But it seems to conflict with the stories of him being employed till November.

[Natalie Severn]

This last sounds right Vigilantee.His work record would definitely have been wrecked as his illness progressed.He must have been quite a handful for his mother and his aunt.

[Cap'n Jack]

I can't place this incident in Thomas' Broadmoor file:

' Man at Cottons Wharf says he was there when assault alledged [sic] was committed."

Cottons Wharf is in Southwark isn't it?

[Natalie Severn]

I can only see Hay"s Wharf and Butler"s Wharf in Southwark AP.I am wondering if "Cotton" Wharf may have been nearer the West India Docks?

[Cap'n Jack]

ISAAC JOSEPH MAUERBERGER, Breaking Peace > threatening behaviour, 31st January 1887.


Reference Number: t18870131-243
Offence: Breaking Peace > threatening behaviour
Verdict: Miscellaneous > unfit to plead
Punishment: Imprisonment > insanity
See original
243. In the case of ISAAC JOSEPH MAUERBERGER (36) , indicted for feloniously sending a letter to Lord Rothschild threatening to murder him , the Jury, after hearing MR. WILLIAM FRANCIS GILBERT , surgeon of Holloway Prison, and DR. GEORGE FIELDING BLANDFORD , found the prisoner insane and unfit to take his trial .— Ordered to be detained until Her Majesty's pleasure be known.

Thanks Natalie, I'm still not sure, but in the meantime I wanted to show that Thomas could have been HMP'd at any point in 1888 for sending threatening letters to Grimthorpe, Dr Brookes or the Treasury... but he wasn't, although Scotland Yard had those letters.

[Natalie Severn]

Its certainly odd that The Sun reports on the letters Thomas Cutbush sent Lord Grimthorpe and taking his gun and threatening to kill his doctor at his surgery ,accusing him of trying to murder him through prescribing poisonous substances,but no date was given.Nor was the episode reported in a newspaper that we know of,though Macnaghten reports it quite fully in his memorandum.
We need those dates AP.

[rjpalmer]

Robert - I imagine that you've already looked into this possibility, but is it possible that Sup. Charles Cutbush's last name is a fluke; a red-herring, of sorts, and Tommy Cutbush was actually related to him as 'nephew' through Charles' wife?

On another topic, the chief trouble with the 'cover-up' theory, to my way of thinking, has always been that Macnaghten **volunteer's** the supposed connection between Charles and Tommy....which would be a damn odd thing to do if he was trying to cover it up; unless, of course, he was trying to be 'proactive' and mention it before anyone else figured it out.

The other problem is Sir Robert Anderson. I don't see Anderson as the type of man who would protect the loss-of-face of a fellow or subordiate officer, at the expense of his own reputation. Still, a "cover up" can often be on an 'emotional' level. Another word for it is 'denial.'

[Cap'n Jack]

Nice to see you around, RJP, my dear chap.
Do you not feel that Dr Brookes and 'The Sun' provoked Macnaghten's dismissal of Thomas when they mentioned the following?

'The letter, said the writer, informed me that he had been to Scotland Yard and had laid an information against me, or some nonsense of that kind. '

I wish you Eid Mubarak.

[Robert]

Hi RJ

I'm not aware of any connection between Ann Dowle, Supt Cutbush's wife, and Thomas.

Although I cannot understand why Macnaghten believed Thomas to be Supt Cutbush's nephew, given that he did apparently believe it then it's possible that he slipped in the nephew bit to warn the recipient of the memorandum (the Home Secretary?) to take care to dismiss the whole story as a piece of journalistic invention.

As you say, Supt Cutbush was the only person to mention the supposed family link. The name "Cutbush" though not rare isn't exactly common either, and one would have thought that if there was a family relationship, then journalists from some newspaper or other would have uncovered it as early as 1891, if only for muck-raking purposes, regardless of any specifically JTR connection.