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  • Thomas Cutbush - General Discussion

    10th January 2006, 09:52 PM
    This thread is for those who wish to discuss Thomas Cutbush.

    Robert

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    AmateurSleuth10th January 2006, 10:10 PM
    I for one, love talking about Thomas Hayne Cutbush. He is in my top 3 suspect list now. I think my Top 10 Suspect list would be:

    1. Unknown local medical student/veterinary student
    2. Thomas Cutbush
    3. Francis Thompson
    4. Roslyn Donston Stephenson
    5. George Chapman
    6. Montague John Druitt
    7. Francis Tumblety
    8. Nicholas Vassily
    9. William Grant Grainger
    10. Michael Ostrog

    Karen

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    robert10th January 2006, 10:22 PM
    Hi Karen

    Glad you like Cutbush. I won't be able to talk about him for a few days, but there's a fair bit about him on the archived Boards.

    Robert

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    Debra Arif10th January 2006, 10:26 PM
    Hi Robert and welcome Karen
    Robert, my username is dj now, just so you know it's me!

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    Debra Arif10th January 2006, 10:29 PM
    scrap that , it changed itself!

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    robert10th January 2006, 10:38 PM
    Hi Debra

    I just demoted myself.

    Robert

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    AmateurSleuth11th January 2006, 01:01 AM
    Hi Robert:

    I don't like Cutbush as a person - just as a suspect. HAHAHAHA!! But, I know what you mean!! Quite a violent young man. I hope to read any new information or research on him. He's a very good candidate for a Ripper

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    AmateurSleuth11th January 2006, 06:58 PM
    Anyway, on to the good stuff - Is there any news in the Cutbush camp?

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    robert12th January 2006, 10:55 AM
    Nothing to report at present, Karen. However, there are a number of avenues still to be explored.

    Robert

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    AmateurSleuth12th January 2006, 11:02 AM
    Hi Robert:

    Am looking forward with great anticipation.

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    Debra A13th January 2006, 02:16 PM
    Hi Robert, and Karen
    I was locked out again so I have had to register again with this name! I am not going to log off this time!
    I was wondering if it might be a good idea to put up a little up to date summary of the research findings on Thomas so far, on this thread. The casebook page on him is based on the out of date information, ie his father died when he was young etc.
    Has AP not joined the new site?

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    AmateurSleuth13th January 2006, 07:12 PM
    Hi Debra:

    I know - I always stay logged in, just in case!!

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    robert13th January 2006, 07:36 PM
    Hi Debra A, D Arif, Debra Arif and DA

    I didn't know there was a Casebook page on Cutbush?

    Yes, AP has joined up and has also joined Australia for a while. Expect there'll be a few Aussies under tables by now.

    Robert

  • #2
    25th February 2006, 07:37 PM
    AP Wolf, in his essay on Cutbush published in the Mammoth Book of JTR states that four of the murders were committed in close proximity to tea warehouses.

    This is the first I've heard of the tea warehouse thing. I don't doubt the geographical facts, but what were the warehouses in question?

    AP Wolf, are you out there? Can you expand?

    Jimmy

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    Jimmy25th February 2006, 07:51 PM
    Sorry, that last post is all wrong. My editing time-limit ran out half way through.
    'Tea warehouses' should read 'premises used in the tea trade'. The essay was 'Jack the Myth'.

    Anyway!

    Any help, cheers...

    Jimmy

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    Natalie Severn25th February 2006, 08:11 PM
    No mere "essay" that Jimmy -try to get hold of a copy of "The Myth" on ebay- you"ll not get one for less than a oner!
    Natalie

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    Magpie25th February 2006, 08:22 PM
    This is the first I've heard of the tea warehouse thing. I don't doubt the geographical facts, but what were the warehouses in question?



    There was a Tea Warehouse in Mitre Sq, I believe. I don't know about the other's. It would be very interesting if true, as my suspect for "Leather Apron" had a son working in the tea trade...

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    Stephen Thomas25th February 2006, 08:39 PM
    Hi Jimmy,

    I've not read the Mammoth Book but there's loads and loads of fine in-depth research on Cutbush which you might not have seen on the archived boards under General Discussion/ Suspects. I'm pretty sure that the tea warehouse thing was discussed there.

    Best Wishes

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    Jimmy25th February 2006, 09:10 PM
    Urgh,

    having a bit of trouble finding that one. Shall persevere...

    Jimmy

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    Natalie Severn25th February 2006, 09:13 PM
    Hi Jimmy and Magpie,
    re your questions about the Tea warehouses.Catherine Eddowes was found in front of a Kearley and Tonge Tea Warehouse in Mitre square.There was also a Kearley and Tongue tea warehouse in the vicinity of Bucks Row but I am not sure of its exact whereabouts.
    Thomas Cutbush worked for a Tea Warehouse,he was a clerk and traveller for a Tea Company ,and the" nephew" of Supt Charles Cutbush who worked on the ripper case and was in charge of most of the "overseeing "of the lodging houses of Whitechapel .He was based in the Commisioners Office at Scotland Yard where Abberline was also based in 1888.He lived just a few streets from Abberline in South London and nearby the two C"s ie Collicit and Cutbush [jr] who were each arrested and charged for some curious "jobbing"incidents.
    In 1891 Collicit ,who lived in Aldebert Street round the corner from Albert Street where Thomas Cutbush lived was caught "red-handed" in front of a shop by the shop keeper---after "numbers" of similar incidents had been reported.Extraordinarily Collicit was only "cautioned" and fined while a few weeks later Thomas Cutbush was arrested and charged with the very same offence- the victims here were actually "unsure" whether or not it was Cutbush who had attacked them-but Thomas Cutbush,in contrast to the "weak-minded" Collicit was " considered insane and unfit to plead" and taken to Broadmoor and imprisoned for life.He died some ten years later.
    The Sun newspaper carried a series of stories about him being "Jack the Ripper" in 1894-they claimed to have hands on evidence which they could not publish. I believe all these are still available on the casebook as well as a full transcript from AP"s book," Jack the Myth".
    All the Best
    Natalie

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    Jimmy25th February 2006, 09:18 PM
    Ah! I know of the Kearley & Tonge warehouse in Mitre Square and the one near Buck's Row. That one was at the western end (White's Row), near Vallance Rd. Just didn't realise it dabbled in tea substances.

    Thanks for the info Natalie, I'm familiar with the rest, but just wonder where the other two tea places were...

    All the best
    Jimmy

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    Magpie25th February 2006, 09:26 PM
    Thank you Natalie.

    I was aware of much of the Cutbush story, but not of the "tea" factor. Very interesting, thank you.

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    apwolf25th February 2006, 10:27 PM
    Thanks Natalie.
    On the old boards we looked at this in incredible detail.
    Right from the start you will be able to find connections to the tea, sugar and cocoa trade in the many Whitechapel warehouses and murders.
    Just think Emma Smith and Taylor’s Cocoa.
    All the warehouses that traded tea also traded cocoa.
    And quicksilver.
    The Mitre brand of tea was very famous.
    I think in the end we were able to place three K&T warehouses at murder sites, and two other cocoa and tea dealers at two other murder sites, but I would need to go back and check that, although I think that is probably about right.
    Whatever, it is a good way to go.
    A nice cup of tea could still solve the mystery.
    Personally I prefer a Spanish brandy.

    Comment


    • #3
      25th February 2006, 10:45 PM
      APWolf

      Thanks for the info.

      All the best
      Jimmy

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      Natalie Severn28th February 2006, 07:54 PM
      Hi AP,
      You mention on another thread that Thomas Cutbush used to carry a curved knife in a sheath.I know a knife found on him was examined and discovered to have come from a certain shop in Bishopsgate[?].Is it possible to point me in the direction of any writings,news reports or other on this?
      Many thanks
      Natalie

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      apwolf1st March 2006, 08:28 AM
      Yes Natalie
      The 'sheath' is mentioned somewhere in the massive 'Sun' reports, which we know concerned Thomas Cutbush.
      Good luck in finding it.
      You'll need a decent set of eyes!

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      Natalie Severn1st March 2006, 02:47 PM
      Thanks AP.Will try to find quote.I do remember it because there was a discussion on whether it could have been the rippers knife.
      I hope your eyesight will get better soon .
      Best Wishes
      Natalie

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      apwolf5th March 2006, 06:56 PM
      Something that has been niggling at my brain for about two years now - without me really being aware of it - is Macnaghten’s comment in his Memo where he says:
      ‘It was found impossible to ascertain his (Thomas Cutbush) movements on the nights of the Whitechapel Murders.’
      This highlights one of the greatest problems we have always had with Thomas Cutbush, proving his whereabouts at the time the murders were committed, and the consensus of opinion has always seemed to be that he was probably locked up in a lunatic asylum at the time of the murders and that if we could prove that, then we would be able to finally dismiss Cutbush as a suspect in the crimes.
      After having studied the Lunacy Laws of the period for some considerable time now I have to say that this is an impossibility.
      The Lunacy Laws were very well regulated and extremely strict, requiring not only daily registration of all inmates of all asylums - both private and public - but also daily log books on each and every patient which included such detail as visits, outings, meals and more importantly police enquiry or investigation into the inmate.
      As Macnaghten employed a team of detectives to look into Cutbush’s ‘antecedents’ then obviously part of that process would have been to check that he had not been registered as a lunatic in any of the asylums available at the times of the murder.
      Obviously Macnaghten’s most solid defence against the accusations made in the ’Sun’ claiming that Thomas Cutbush was Jack the Ripper would have been to say ’sorry, boys, Cutbush was in the asylum at the times of the murders and here is the daily record book that proves it‘.
      But this did not happen.
      I therefore feel very confident to be able to state that Thomas Cutbush was not confined to an institution in 1888; and he obviously was not at home, or with one of his uncles during 1888, so just where the devil was he?

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      robert5th March 2006, 07:31 PM
      Exactly, AP. And, while making due allowance for M's uncertainty regarding times, it seems to me that his comments read like a confession that the police were unable to rule him out.

      He is supposed to have contracted syphilis around 1888 and thenceforth led an idle and useless life. Well, there isn't much else to do in an asylum! But I think this remark rather indicates that he wasn't in an institution.

      Then M says that his brain seems to have become affected - the perfect opportunity to mention an asylum alibi, if there was one.

      And then, they tried to find out where he was on the nights of the murders two and a half years earlier. I can't remember what I was doing two and a half months ago. More likely they were trying to prove that he was locked up.

      And couldn't.

      Robert

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      Magpie5th March 2006, 07:56 PM
      .
      The Lunacy Laws were very well regulated and extremely strict, requiring not only daily registration of all inmates of all asylums - both private and public - but also daily log books on each and every patient which included such detail as visits, outings, meals and more importantly police enquiry or investigation into the inmate.


      Excellent point, AP. Do you know if the same reporting was done for lunatics confined to workhouses? Did the Lunacy Law govern them as well? Thanks

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      apwolf5th March 2006, 09:24 PM
      Robert! How lovely to see you back my dear chap.
      Quite right, Mac fluffed it because he had nothing on record.
      Here’s some of the regulation and control, although I have a powerful lot more of this stuff, certainly this act did bring the ‘workhouse’ under the direct control of the ‘Lunacy Act’:
      ‘The 1845 Lunacy Act (http://forum.casebook.org/Law.htm%20/%201845) established the Lunacy Commission:
      The Act named eleven Metropolitan Commissioners (http://forum.casebook.org/%201828MetropolitanCommission) as Lunacy Commissioners. Six (three medical and three legal) were to be employed full time at salaries of 1,500 pounds a year. The other five were honorary commissioners whose main function was to attend board meetings. The Permanent Chairman had to be an honorary commissioner, but otherwise they were not essential to the commission's operations. The only Metropolitan legal commissioner not appointed as a Lunacy Commissioner was named in the Act as Secretary.

      The Lunacy Commission had national authority, under the Lord Chancellor and Home Secretary, over all asylums (except Bedlam until 1853). It shared responsibility with the poor Law Commission/Board etc for pauper lunatics outside asylums. Its principle functions were to monitor the erection of a network of publicly owned county asylums (http://forum.casebook.org/mhhglo.htm...CountyAsylums), required under the 1845 County Asylums Act (http://forum.casebook.org/%201845CountyAsylumsAct), and the transfer of all pauper lunatics from workhouses and outdoor relief to a public or private asylum; to regulate their treatment in private asylums, and (with the Poor Law Commission) monitor the treatment of any remaining in workhouses or on outdoor relief.’
      The following law applied until 1890:
      ‘PAUPERS (LICENSED HOUSES)
      1828 Madhouse Act (http://forum.casebook.org/Law.htm%20/%209Geo4c40) section 31 + 1832 Madhouse Act (http://forum.casebook.org/Law.htm%20/%202+3Will4c107) section 29:
      No parish patient was to be received without a written order signed by two (1832: one) Justices of the Peace (http://forum.casebook.org/sshglo.htm%20/%20JP), or by a parish overseer (http://forum.casebook.org/mhhtim.htm%20/%20Overseer) and the clergyman of the parish (1832: on Forms D (http://forum.casebook.org/%201832D) and E (http://forum.casebook.org/%201832E) and a certificate signed by one doctor (**) (http://forum.casebook.org/%203S.4.6**Doctors) (1832: on form F (http://forum.casebook.org/%201832F). (1832: To do so "knowingly and wilfully" was a misdemeanour).’
      So, all easily checked by a police force with such an interest.
      Thomas actually forms part of the history of the Lunacy Laws of the UK, though they got his name wrong, and I can post that if there is an interest.

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      Comment


      • #4
        5th March 2006, 09:43 PM
        Yes,great to see you posting Robert!Have missed you!


        That is an excellent reference AP.And it would be brilliant if you could post his named entry!

        Natalie

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        robert5th March 2006, 09:45 PM
        Thanks AP. Yes, anything you've got about Thomas, although the technical stuff will go over my head at the moment.

        Sir M doesn't seem to know all that much about Thomas - e.g. he says his father died when he was quite young. It may be that Kate spun the police this line out of some sort of embarrassment, but considering that M says that little reliance can be placed on Kate and Clara's statements, and virtually accuses them of being barmy, he seems to have taken their word for this without checking. Or else he got his wires crossed.

        Robert

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        robert5th March 2006, 09:47 PM
        Thanks Natalie. I am dusting off my toy dagger.

        Robert

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        apwolf5th March 2006, 10:57 PM
        The report on Thomas figures in the summary of the ‘The 1832 Madhouse Act and the Metropolitan Commission for Lunacy’, available on a search, but I think he is called John, or it might even have been ‘Jack’.
        Just having a little laugh.
        The site is excellent for detail of lunatics and the law relating to them of the time.

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        Natalie Severn5th March 2006, 11:12 PM
        Well its good to see you being playful again AP!

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        robert6th March 2006, 10:23 PM
        Aha! I clicked on the link and was sent to a Casebook press report.

        As the Goons would have said, Cutbush was well-known in concentric circles.

        Robert

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        Natalie Severn6th March 2006, 11:56 PM
        well that fits just about every suspect on the casebook Robert!

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        apwolf7th March 2006, 04:10 PM
        In view of Macnaghten’s statement in the Memo - that the whereabouts of Thomas Cutbush could not ascertained on the nights of the murders - I believe us to be on very firm ground in saying that Thomas could not possibly have been confined to an asylum or other institution in the critical months of 1888.
        Taking this into regard with the series of reports concerning Thomas Cutbush that appeared in the ‘Sun’ in February 1894 we are then able to place Thomas Cutbush right into the heart of Whitechapel during those critical months.
        From the ‘Sun’:
        ‘We are able to trace the whole career of the man who committed those crimes, we can give the name of his employers, their places of business, the terms of his service there, and the incidents of his connection with them - incidents which clearly show that he was in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel at the time when the murders were committed; that he developed tendencies even in his employment of homicidal insanity; and finally he was at liberty and close to Whitechapel during all that period when the murders were committed.’
        Better than that, the ‘Sun’ is able to give us an exact date for the vicious attack Cutbush made on the old gentleman at the warehouse in Whitechapel, 24th July 1888.
        As it took the old gentleman ‘some few weeks’ to recover from his injuries he was not able to explain until then that Cutbush had actually attacked him and the fall had not been accidental.
        Therefore Thomas Cutbush would not have lost the employment at the Whitechapel warehouse until sometime in late August of 1888.
        That will do me.
        I believe this combination puts young Cutbush more in the frame than he has ever been before.

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        Natalie Severn7th March 2006, 05:34 PM
        If thats the case AP then the incident happened very shortly after he gained employment with this Whitechapel firm.
        Natalie

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        robert7th March 2006, 05:56 PM
        Just as pure speculation, I can imagine Morris being exactly the type that might antagonize Thomas - "I'm sorry mate, you can't park here" - and if he couldn't push him down the stairs, maybe he heard Morris's remark that he'd give Jack a seeing to if he came round his way, and decided to give him a shock.

        Robert

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        apwolf7th March 2006, 06:38 PM
        Time for tea, Natalie & Robert?
        I can highly recommend the Mitre Brand from the excellent Kearley & Tonge warehouse situated at Mitre Square.
        Speculation is probably a good way to go with that 'jobsworth' Morris.
        Ex-Metropolitan police officer.
        Thrown out of court.
        One can imagine uncle Charles trusting young Thomas to his care.
        'You'll be all right, George, here's five bob, look after the lad, and make sure he doesn't fall down the stairs.'
        'Right you are, Superintendent, I'll keep my eye on the lad.'
        Whoops! Too late. There goes another one.

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        robert7th March 2006, 06:48 PM
        AP, again speculation, but it's possible to read the GSG as a dig at Morris - for was not the man whom Morris accused of stealing a box Jewish?

        Robert

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        Natalie Severn7th March 2006, 07:40 PM
        Morris said his door had not been "on the jar" more than two or three minutes....and added that"No" -he didnt think there was anything "unusual" about him sweeping the steps,down towards the door[leading into the Mitre Square crime scene].at 1.45 am ie at approximately the same time that Catherine Eddowes was being murdered and mutilated!

        Is it possible do you think AP or Robert ,that Thomas had been" lurking about" in that square just before Morris began to do his 1.45 am "sweeping',-maybe he found one of the chimneys in the empty houses a useful place to stuff his bloodstained clothes!
        Natalie

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        robert7th March 2006, 08:02 PM
        Natalie, he may have left the square via one of the empty houses. I think the trousers were destined for his own chimney. Any stains if noticed would be explained as mud, the results of his rambling expeditions - remember he spent the nights skipping and picking wild flowers.

        Robert

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        mariag13th March 2006, 05:54 PM
        Robert's right about the stains.

        Thomas could have jumped that short fence and gone through the back window of the empty house. I believe that we've always assumed that the preponderance of fences and gates in this case are because prostitutes preferred them to brick or stone walls but that we could look at them as escape routes for an agile young murderer as well.

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        robert13th March 2006, 06:01 PM
        And this man even entered his own home via the back way, Mags.

        Robert

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        apwolf13th March 2006, 06:14 PM
        And through the windows, Robert.
        He didn't like doors.
        Went up the wall like a monkey, along it and then hopped through his garret window... to pin his beautiful night moths - that he had caught with a net -on the walls.
        I don't know what he did with the wild flowers he collected on his nature rambles, probably ate them.

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        Comment


        • #5
          16th May 2006, 11:26 PM
          There is a Cutbush connection to this tale of murder and mayhem in Kent, but it defeated me, but what is interesting is how an out-of-town killer from Kent is apprehended at the Three Nuns in Whitechapel.
          Perhaps all the mass murderers and serial killers of the LVP met up there for a pint and chat?
          Sunday 30th May to Sunday, June 6th, 1813.



          HORRIBLE ASSASSINATION OF MR. AND MRS. BONAR,
          We have to record one of the most dreadful catastrophes that the annals of guilt ever presented; catastrophes, which at one time were so rare as to form aeras in the history of our country; but which, within these few years, have become so frequent, as to excite in us, the most painful reflections on the state of moral feelings. The flagrant addition to the catalogue of crime which is now before us, is the murder of Thomson Bonar, Esq. the great Russia merchant; and Bank director, and his lady, at their seat at Chislehurst, in the County of Kent.
          It appears that on Sunday evening, Mr. Thomson Bonar went to bed at his usual hour; Mrs. Bonar did not follow till two o'clock, when she ordered her female servant to call her at seven o'clock in the morning. The servant, as she had heen directed, at the appointed time went into the bed-room of her master and mistress, and found Mr. Bonar mangled and dead upon the floor, and her lady wounded, dying and insensible in her bed.. A bent poker which was lying on the ground, as well as the fractured condition of the heads of the unfortunate victims, plainly denoted with what instrument the act had been committed. As there were some remains of life in Mrs. Bonar, servants were sent express to town for surgical assistance. Mr. Astley Cooper arrived with all possible dispatch, but it was too late; the wound was mortal, and she expired at 11 minutes past one o'clock, having been, during the whole previous time, insensible, and only once uttering the exclamation of 'Oh! dear'!'
          The whole of Tuesday, and part of the day preceding, was occupied in inquiring into these horrid murders. Mr. Bonar, it appears, was found dead on the floor, and, the lady survived until between one and two o'clock on Monday, but quite senseless. Her skull was dreadfully fractured, and part of her brains were found in the bed. A footman, who had been in the family five weeks, of the name of Philip Nicholson, formerly a private in a dragoon regiment, and since servant to the City Remembrancer, was taken into custody in London, on Monday morning, on suspicion of having been the perpetrator of the horrid murders, after a scuffle with Forrester, the city-officer, who found him on horseback, drinking at the door of the Three Nuns Inn, in Whitechapel, with an old acquaintance. He was conveyed to Giltspur-street Compter, in a state of drunkenness approaching insanity, and nothing like a rational answer or confession of guilt could be obtained from him.

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          robert16th May 2006, 11:36 PM
          Hi AP

          He was drinking on horseback yet was drunk close to the point of insanity. Did they have superglue in those days?

          Robert

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          Natalie Severn16th May 2006, 11:42 PM
          I must confess to being a bit nonplussed by the "Thomas Cutbush" link but hey
          ....all these sort of old cases are such a good read...especially together with your unique captions AP.....loved the bit about the murderers rendezvous in Whitechapel!
          Natalie

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          apwolf1st June 2006, 10:45 PM
          This could be interesting. Found this on a website devoted to the tokens issued by market traders in the LVP.
          ‘661. Billingsgate, W Cutbush 1/- maker Johnson rev. blank Brass oblong one end rounded 41.5x25.5mm. Not in Chambers.’

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          robert2nd June 2006, 10:09 AM
          Hi AP

          I've an idea there was a Cutbush working at Billingsgate at one time.

          Robert

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          robert2nd June 2006, 03:16 PM
          There was certainly a Cutbush in the fish industry, at any rate.

          I am now looking for Thomas Hake Cutbush.

          Robert

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          apwolf2nd June 2006, 06:50 PM
          He probably got battered at the Trafalgar Square riots, Robert.

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          apwolf8th June 2006, 10:26 PM
          Yeehah!
          Cutbush meets Cornball and dear old Trev, and Cutbush wins.
          Ladies and gentlemen let me present you with the new fictional Jack the Ripper.
          When Cutbush gets Comic, you know he just won.
          We talk super heroes here.
          Fantomen Nr.9/2006
          by Hans Lindahl
          The London Underground Murders Pt.2 Maniac at Large
          Script: David Bishop
          Art: César Spadari
          First published with the title The Asylum in Fantomen Nr.9/2006 by Egmont, Scandinavia. Original cover shown on the left, thanks to Ulf Granberg (http://www.fantomen.com/).
          Message from the Publisher:
          The gripping London Underground Murders saga reaches its climax in this issue. Writer David Bishop, who has already surprised us by introducing Professor Moriarty (from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's famous Sherlock Holmes no less!), throws in a few more twists and turns.
          The London Underground fiend, who has already identified himself as "Cutbush", is portrayed to be quite possibly. the infamous "Jack The Ripper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_the_ripper)". Let's settle that one! Despite the untiring efforts of Scotland Yard and dozens of historians and researchers, including famous novelist Patricia Cornwall who recently wrote a book in which she claimed to solve the mystery, the identity of "Jack The Ripper" has not been established beyond question. There remain at least three prime suspects and I seriously doubt whether the truth will ever emerge.
          Even though a few facts have been distorted, it doesn't really matter! The two-part London Underground Murders thriller is still a great Phantom adventure, tightly scripted and brilliantly illustrated by César Spadari.
          We'll have a break from heavy drama in our next edition - a 100-page special which will be on sale on 12 May. Three stories, two of American origin, will be showcased and all are set in comparatively modern times.

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          Natalie Severn8th June 2006, 10:54 PM
          ..... are you making it up as you go along here,AP?Is it this latest thing then?
          Getting back to Thomas Cutbush.I was going to go and have a look at the junction of Camden Road and Camden Street this morning,where that chap is supposed to have met Thomas[it was too hot out so I went for a swim instead as I dont work today].Apparently the encounter with the "young man and his sweetheart-such quaint words those- is supposed to have happened when he escaped from a hospital,"where there were people with fevers " etc.I wonder where the hospital was.....somewhere in North London maybe?It interested me because it happened soon after his arrest in March 1891....four days after I believe.Since his arrest was for the jobbing in Kennington why was he up in North London-apparently trying to make his way to Hampstead fields?
          Just wondering.Any ideas?
          Natalie

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          robert9th June 2006, 02:46 PM
          Why is JTR dressed as a cowboy in "Puck"?

          Robert

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          robert9th June 2006, 07:09 PM
          This is one Cutbush who wasn't a rose sniffer - it appears from this cover that he suffered from hay fever.

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          Comment


          • #6
            9th June 2006, 07:37 PM
            And here is what the author, David Bishop has to say about 'comic Cutbush':

            I contribute scripts to Fantomen, a comic published by Egmont in Scandinavia about the adventures of costumed hero The Phantom. After each story is published, I prepare some notes on how my script came about for a Norwegian website. I'm not sure these notes ever get seen in English, so I figured they might as well appear here. An English language version of The Underground Murders will be published in the next few weeks by Australia's Frew Comics...

            Looking back at The Underground Murders, it’s hard to remember where the inspiration for the story came from. Certainly, Team Fantomen was eager for more stories featuring the 18th Phantom and his half-brother Chris Sommerset. The son of the Pirate Queen had relocated to London in a previous story and married Anna, Kate Sommerset’s former first mate. I think the title, The Underground Murders, probably came from Team Fantomen – the Phantom’s editorial staff often supply story titles as a jumping off for writers. The setting of late Victorian London immediately brings to mind the era of Jack the Ripper. Although the prostitute killer’s last slaying took place in 1888, newspapers were full of scare stories about copycat cases for years afterwards and people claiming to have deduce the true identity of the Ripper.

            One such report was published in a paper called the Sun, claiming a man called Thomas Cutbush was the Ripper. Cutbush was arrested in Spring 1891 for stabbing a woman and attempted to wound another woman, both in South London. The accused had escaped from Lambeth Infirmary where he was detained as a lunatic. Cutbush was subsequently found to be insane and imprisoned indefinitely. His uncle was a superintendent in the Metropolitan police at the time. Charles Henry Cutbush committed suicide five years later.

            Around this time the London Underground was becoming established in England’s capital, although it was a primitive version of the Tube found beneath the city today. Combine this evocative setting with the idea of a Ripper copycat killer, the historical fact that an insane man known for stabbing women was loose in London at the time and his uncle being a police superintendent – and The Underground Murders was the result. The two-part story tweaks historical fact for dramatic effect, but considerable effort was put into supplying visual reference from the period to make the story look as accurate as possible.

            Cesar Spadari has drawn nearly all the stories in the Sommerset family saga and he does a typically sound job of these scripts. But my personal highlight has to be Hans Lindahl’s wonderfully evocative cover for the second part [see above], published in Fantomen 09/2006 – quite stunning!

            Below is the original synopsis submitted to Team Fantomen for this two-part tale. As you’ll see, quite a bit changed in the telling of the story. Any Frew readers who haven't seen the published story yet should stop reading now to avoid spoiling themselves for forthcoming issues...

            PLOT SYNOPSIS: THE LONDON UNDERGROUND MURDERS (Historical)
            January 1891: The son of the Pirate Queen, Chris Sommerset, has married to his mother’s former first mate, Anna. She is pregnant, so the 18th Phantom travels to London hoping to see his first nephew. But he arrives to find the British capital gripped by fear – women are being attacked on the London Underground and newspapers are full of speculation that Jack the Ripper could be responsible. He terrified the city during the Autumn of 1888, murdering five prostitutes in the East End before abruptly stopping his killing spree. Could the man known as Leather Apron be back?
            The Phantom and Chris discuss the case and decide the case is quite different from that of Jack the Ripper. He murdered prostitutes, mostly in the open air and late at night. The fiend terrorising the underground is attacking honest, decent women on trains in the early morning or around dusk. The case is complicated by arguments over jurisdiction – any crimes committed on the underground is investigated by the Metropolitan Railway Police, but Scotland Yard always wants to get involved. Mr Walker escorts Anna’s maid safely on to a busy train, but she is slain less than an hour later, distressing Anna greatly. The attacker has now escalated to murder, but each slaying will not slake his hunger for spilling blood. He must be stopped, before other innocents die!
            Chris and Mr Walker go to the police but their aide is unwanted. Scotland Yard is being overwhelmed by hoax letters, would-be sleuths and psychics claiming they can solve the crimes. Chris and the Phantom decide to investigate for themselves, see what they can discover. They study evidence the police have ignored and recognise a pattern. The first widely reported attack happened at Whitechapel, the stalking ground of the Ripper, but other, previous unconnected attacks took place along the line between New Cross Gate south of the Thames and Whitechapel, starting at New Cross Gate. Could the killer come from south of the river?
            The Phantom decides to ride the trains, see if he can stop the attacks or the attacker, while Chris comforts Anna. The Phantom frightens one woman alone who thinks he is the killer, so she switches carriages. He thinks he spots the killer soon after but it is merely a lover’s quarrel. A scream cuts through the air – the Phantom clambers out of one carriage to the next and interrupts the killer in action. It is the woman who got scared of the Phantom before. He makes sure she is alright, then pursues the fleeing killer – but is stopped by the railway police, who think he’s the killer! Despite this, the Phantom hears the killer command a hansom cab driver to the Lambeth Infirmary. Mr Walker is arrested and charged with the attempted murder!

            In part two Mr Walker struggles to prove his innocence, thanks to Chris’s intervention. Mr Walker was not even in the country when the attacks began. Yes, but he knew the first victim and he scared the second. The survivor eventually regains her senses and says Mr Walker saved her life. The real killer had a hook nose, furtive eyes. Chris and his half-brother visit the infirmary and discover it has an insane asylum attached. The Phantom is introduced to the asylum’s director, Dr Cutbush, and believes he may be the killer – but can they prove it? The police will not listen when Mr Walker and Chris put forward their theory – a doctor would not be responsible for these vile crimes. Besides Dr Cutbush is the brother of one of our superintendents!
            The Phantom and Chris resolve to take turns keeping watch over Dr Cutbush until they can catch him in the act. But he seems to lead an innocent life – could they have gotten the wrong man? They don’t realise they are observed by the real killer. He hunts the hunters, following one of them to the Sommerset family home. return to Chris’s home to find Anna being held at knifepoint by Dr Cutbush’s son, Thomas. He is the Underground Killer, a patient at the asylum under his father’s care – that explains the family resemblance. Anna fights her way free, refusing to become the next victim, but her baby is coming. Cutbush flees, so Chris stays with Anna while the Phantom pursues the killer. Cutbush dies beneath the wheels of an underground train, killed by his chosen mode for murder…

            Ends.

            posted by David Bishop at 2:21 PM (http://viciousimagery.blogspot.com/2006/04/phantom-underground-murders.html)'

            I like this guy's energy, and would rather see him talking and writing than most of the herberts who would claim to write factual books around here.
            I'd like to see David joining this board.

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            Natalie Severn9th June 2006, 08:43 PM
            I liked his approach.Lots of imaginative images woven around the unorthodox domestic lives of the two lots of players--- and exciting reading!
            Natalie

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            Mr Phil12th June 2006, 03:51 AM
            In Sydney in the year 1876, a child named Clara Augusta was born to Thomas Taylor Cutbush and Frances Augusta ( ….)

            In 1887 Frances A Blake married Edward Royle.

            In 1938 Frances Augusta Royle died. Her parents were listed as Francis Augustus and Clara.

            The NSW BDM reference numbers for these certificates are 1574/1876 2967/1887 and 16287/1938

            There is a little bit of supposition here, but where would Casebook be without it? ………

            Could it be that TT fathered young Clara ( who was named after her grandmother ) and then shot through . Frances Augusta did the best she could until she married Ted Royle in 1887. Ted died in 1915 ( 6885/1915 ) and Clara died in 1938.

            A Clara Blake married George Boxsell in 1898 ( 4621/1898). Was this young Clara Augusta ?

            There was also a William M Cutbush in Sydney in 1876.


            By the way, "to job" is a common Australian slang term meaning "to punch". i.e. "We started to argue about Ripper suspects and I jobbed him." This does not mean that I poked him in the bottom with a pointed object. We have quite a different term for that, but this is not the place for that sort of language.

            .

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            robert12th June 2006, 11:48 AM
            Thank you, Mr Phil. I'll look into this when I get a free breath.

            Thomas Taylor Cutbush died, I think, in 1886, but we don't know where. If memory serves, his (third!) wife's maiden name was Watson, and after his death she married a Mr Swann.

            Robert

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            robert12th June 2006, 03:13 PM
            Mr Phil, if you look at the Cutbush in the 1881 census thread, in the month of January 2005, on the old boards, there are some posts that bear on this.

            Robert

            Comment


            • #7
              13th June 2006, 10:53 AM
              Ah AP, old sport, I see how you can enjoy this one with relish, hold the lemons - a representation based on the murder and mutilation of women, but this time right up your train tunnel because it hits the right 'suspect' note.

              Comical rather than comic?

              Love,

              Caz
              X

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              Natalie Severn13th June 2006, 03:28 PM
              Well Caz, I thought this was an entirely different genre to the books that have depicted the victims in a disrespectful way.
              The comic version doesnt really lay claim to "reality'.Readers are well aware its in comic format, that villains are simply archetypal,and that good and evil are not concepts presented with subtlety but as black and white stereotypes etc. They really dont fall into the same category as books presented as factual reference material .
              The victims of the Whitechapel murderer were five innocent and vulnerable women .
              To add insult to injury by displaying their mutilated remains purely to titillate and sell more books or films ----or else through lying through their teeth about the actual events in an effort to increase their profits for themselves and their publishers ,is a totally different ball game.
              Imagine the sense of outrage,the lobbies around the world , if the victims of the Holocaust of the 1940'S were depicted in such a way in order to amass money!
              But no way would that be allowed to happen. The Holocaust victims, partly because they numbered in excess of 6 million, would have great armies of outraged and rightly furious relatives - as well World opinion etc ready to take issue and prevent such cynical exploitation of the memory of these innocent victims of mass murder-and thank God for that!
              But the victims of the Whitechapel murderer dont have such a lobby of sympathy,unfortunately.
              Natalie

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              robert13th June 2006, 03:48 PM
              So saying, Cazwoman turned to go. But she had reckoned without Apman's utility belt....

              Robert

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              apwolf13th June 2006, 09:55 PM
              Quite right, Natalie and Robert.
              The thing is Caz that the modern approach to Jack is to treat him like a myth or legend, almost like a comic-book hero, so I kinda like to see Thomas Cutbush getting the same treatment.
              The one and the same if you like, my dear.

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              caz21st June 2006, 08:43 AM
              Imagine the sense of outrage,the lobbies around the world , if the victims of the Holocaust of the 1940'S were depicted in such a way in order to amass money!

              Yes, I think I see what you are getting at, Nats.

              If these victims were depicted in a comic, you would have no objection.

              Love,

              Caz
              X

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              apwolf21st June 2006, 06:57 PM
              I thought the following private ad from The Times 1834 might help to locate the following bed-sit that the Cutbush family were trying to unload… be nice to get a pic of the humble abode.
              ‘Highgate - To Be Let.
              Furnished, opposite the new church, a good house. It contains entrance hall, breakfast and dining parlours, drawing room opening to a lawn and pleasure ground, commanding fine views. Seven bed rooms, dressing and sitting room, good kitchen, and other offices supplied with fine water; coach house and stable.
              Inquire of Mr.Cutbush, nurseryman, Highgate.’

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              Natalie Severn21st June 2006, 07:29 PM
              Caz,
              If the message of the Holocaust were to be delivered in comic format ie by a comic
              I would be 100% in favour.
              If a comic had been able to deliver the best the warning on what the rise of Hitler would have meant for humanity and the consequences of the 2nd World War then I would have called for comics for every age, translated into at least a dozen languages!
              Its not the format its the content and the sorts of values that content encourages.
              I"m all for comics Caz!

              AP,Stephen might be coming to the "London Job" on Saturday and if he does I will ask him if the house is still there.
              Natalie

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              Mr Phil8th July 2006, 03:28 AM
              As usual I am probably way behind the game here, but family history research has taught me that sometimes playing 'what if' pays off.

              So far I don't remember seeing positive proof that Thomas Taylor Cutbush was young Tom's father. He seems to have been a "love 'em and leave 'em" sort of bloke, and fits the profile nicely, but another possibility has occurred to me.

              Was Charles Cutbush young Tom's uncle, or was he young Tom's "uncle", i.e. his natural father. Charles would have been about 20 when Tom was born, and if no sibling relationship can be established between him and Thomas Taylor then his close interest in young Tom's welfare may well have been a paternal one. It may also have had a bearing on why he topped himself.

              Would the regulars please refute this theory? (The path we don't take helps to determine the path we do take.)

              .

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              Mr Phil8th July 2006, 04:10 AM
              Further investigation reveals that Robert has a copy of Kate and TTC's marriage certificate. This appears to make my latest theory highly unlikely. Not impossible, but certainly unprovable.

              I shall now wander off and 'discover' some other theory that is either common knowledge or a red herring, but fun either way.

              .

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              robert8th July 2006, 10:17 AM
              Hi Mr Phil

              As far as I can gather, Thomas Taylor Cutbush was not closely related to Charles Henry Cutbush. On the other hand, there is Macnaghten's assertion that CHC was the uncle of Thomas Hayne Cutbush. I can't help feeling that there's something behind this - that "uncle" may have applied in the loose sense of the term. There is also the fact that both Kate's residences in the 80s and 90s were very close to CHC's residence. But that's as far as I've got at the moment.

              Robert

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              apwolf8th July 2006, 06:56 PM
              Yes, Robert & Phil
              I have always seen something dodgy in the relationship between Thomas senior, Thomas junior, Kate and uncle Charles, mainly because of the way Thomas senior lit out of England for NZ so soon after Thomas’ birth. Such radical action requires a powerful motivating force; and it was not in Thomas senior’s best interests to desert his fledgling family as there was a considerable inheritance up for grabs. The fact that he never came back to sort out ‘his’ inheritance probably shows that he had made a complete split with his immediate family. Again there must be good reason for this.
              I vaguely remember something about Thomas junior’s birthplace being closer to Uncle Charles than his fathers’?
              Thomas senior’s actions do have the imperative of a man running away from something, and that combined with an obvious desire to disinherit himself from his wealth, do seem to indicate some sort of catastrophic personal circumstance.
              Something like a Midwich Cuckoo I would think.

              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              robert8th July 2006, 07:56 PM
              Hi AP

              I think that either something was pushing him very strongly, or pulling him very strongly. I believe that this marriage was probably for money. I think I recall that Thomas had a younger brother, who died as a baby, just before TTC left. To leave one's wife in such circumstances (and to leave her money) suggests some powerful motive.

              Robert

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              robert8th July 2006, 08:12 PM
              AP, I've looked back at my post on the old boards (easier than trying to find the certificate in this room!) and THC was born 10 Hurley Rd, Lambeth. This was his father's address. Chris found Uncle Charles living in Westminster in 1871.

              Robert

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              Comment


              • #8
                30th August 2006, 10:41 PM
                As you mention Westminster, Robert... have you noticed how close Dr Brooks surgery at Westminster Bridge Road is to Bedlam?
                You could throw a stone.

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                robert30th August 2006, 11:07 PM
                Hi AP

                I checked back a fair few years - couldn't find THC though.

                Robert

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                chiqagolil@yahoo.com31st August 2006, 12:47 PM
                This thread is for those who wish to discuss Thomas Cutbush.

                Robert
                I chose Cutbush in 1973 when I was investigating the case. Knowing that Sir Authur Conan Doyle was on the case, I knew that the killer would be very likely to pull some obvious tricks on him. My former husband was named John Thomas. I knew that his friends always called him Jack which is the nickname for John. When I read about the grizzly details of the victims, I knew there had to be something to it. Each victim was like the messages in blood sent by today's Al Queda. The Throat was cut first. Then the Heart, the ears-Olfactory, the breasts-Mammory glands, the Anus, and the Stomach on the twin murders. Being a minister, I knew that Thomas meant twins in the Biblical texts. To cut her in such a violent fashion means he had to Rip her. Bush is an old English term for the private part of the female.

                Other clues were the 13 murders, that was known as the baker's dozen. It just so happened that my husband, a sex fiend like my suspect, was also a baker.

                The reason that Scotland Yard did not uncover this sooner was because the murderer, whom I believe was in disguise and living a dual life, worked for them. He even wrote about how he loved disguising his leading character as someone else. He wrote about how he loved investigating the most obvious clues that no one else looked into.



                After the Ripper finished spelling out his name, he stopped killing. At least, in England. He later hopped aboard a ship and sailed to America to play games with one of our famous detectives.


                The twin murders not only spelled out the name Thomas, but, also, the identity of the murderer, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, alias, John Thomas Cutbush.

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                robert31st August 2006, 01:08 PM
                Of course! It's been staring me in the face all along!

                How did I miss it?

                Robert

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                efarrall31st August 2006, 03:52 PM
                AP, I've looked back at my post on the old boards (easier than trying to find the certificate in this room!) and THC was born 10 Hurley Rd, Lambeth. This was his father's address. Chris found Uncle Charles living in Westminster in 1871.

                Robert

                Hi Robert

                Maybe in your search for this suspect's genealogy you should concentrate on the Cutbush City Limits.

                Elizabeth

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                robert31st August 2006, 04:50 PM
                Elizabeth, now who's doing puns?

                Yes, by Ike and Tina Turner. That was before it became Icon Tina Turner.

                Roberf

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                efarrall31st August 2006, 08:27 PM
                Hi Robert;

                I know, I'm blushing at my audacity to cross swords with a master. What can I say? I'm sorry but I came over all spreeish. I bow before your superiority.

                Elizabeth

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                Sam Flynn31st August 2006, 08:32 PM
                I know, I'm blushing at my audacity to cross swords with a master. What can I say? I'm sorry but I came over all spreeish. I bow before your superiority.
                Indeed, he's simply the best.

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                efarrall1st September 2006, 01:45 PM
                So saith the other master. Sam how could you? I can barely compete with Robert but you joining in, well it smacks of ganging up. I'll retire now but (adopts a Teutonic accent) 'I'll be back'.

                Elizabeth

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                robert1st September 2006, 02:07 PM
                "I'll retire now but (adopts a Teutonic accent) 'I'll be back'."

                Yes, that's what Israel Schwarzenegger said too.

                Robert

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                mariag1st September 2006, 03:51 PM
                Speaking of close to Bedlam...

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                efarrall2nd September 2006, 11:30 AM
                "I'll retire now but (adopts a Teutonic accent) 'I'll be back'."

                Yes, that's what Israel Schwarzenegger said too.

                Robert

                Hi Robert;

                Stop! No more! I've conceded defeat, my weak, laboured effort was no match for your obvious superiority. I can't take anymore. Altho' what I should've said in deference to Sam's homeland was 'I'll be bach'.

                Elizabeth

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                eduardo2nd September 2006, 02:30 PM
                [quote=chiqagolil@yahoo.com;38921]Bush is an old English term for the private part of the female. quote]

                Hello chiqagolil,

                I came across your website sometime ago. At the time, it was mentioned in the news section - I Beg to Report - of Ripperologist magazine. Since then I have on occasion wondered what had happened to your site and your theory, so I'm glad to see you are still holding on proudly to it. I'm a great believer in diversity and the right of everyone to his or her own opinion.

                Incidentally, you mention that "Bush is an old English term for the private part of the female." Any reason why you don't mention what John Thomas stands for in English?

                All the best
                Eduardo

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                robert9th October 2006, 12:40 PM
                Plodding forward one small step in the quest to get info on the Cutbushes, I notice that Charles Henry Cutbush was an executor for the estate of Supt William Harris, died Feb 1889. Harris was Supt S division (Hampstead) in 1888.

                Robert

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                Natalie Severn9th October 2006, 01:50 PM
                Thanks Robert,
                This ofcourse is where Thomas Cutbush was likely to have been heading when he told the young couple in Camden Town that he was making for "The Fields"
                -Hampstead Heath being only up the road from Camden Town and en route.Interesting because Stephen Thomas took photos of the Cutbush Garden Centre which was also just up from Camden ,in the next village of Highgate.Seems they may have had both relatives and friends living that way!Its a fair distance from Kennington---about an hours walk.
                Natalie

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                robert9th October 2006, 02:09 PM
                Thanks Nats. William Harris is interesting - the 81 census records him as Supt at the ripe old age of 36. I don't know whether or not he was any relation to William Charles Harris who reached rank of Asst Commissioner, Met.

                Robert

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                apwolf5th January 2007, 09:42 AM
                Tom-Tom banging his drum?

                'The Daily Telegraph
                SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 17, 1888

                Page 2

                EXTRAORDINARY AFFAIR. - It has just transpired that a young woman, named Annie Murphy, living at Sanderstead-road, Croydon, was stopped on Monday night last, when in the Brighton-road, near her home, by a tall, thin man, who suddenly put his arm round her. She struggled and screamed, and a policeman who was near ran at once to the spot. By the time that he arrived, however, the man had got away, and the young woman only complaining that he had embraced her, the matter was not followed up. Later in the evening, however, she found that her dress was cut, and that she had been stabbed in the breast. She immediately went to a doctor, and informed the police, who are now searching for her assailant. The woman says she did not feel the stab at the time.'

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                robert5th January 2007, 10:33 AM
                Certainly a weird affair, AP. Stabbed and didn't realise it!

                Robert

                Comment


                • #9
                  From http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=2&gl=uk

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In an interesting article on "Synagogues of the East End ..." in Ripperologist 89, Chris George discusses a report in a Canadian newspaper from 1894 that Thomas Cutbush asked, when he was arrested "is this ... for the Mile End job? I mean the public-house next the Syndicate where I just missed her that time. They took me to be of the Jewish persuasion."
                    [Qu'Appelle Progress, Ontario, 29 March 1894
                    http://www.casebook.org/press_report...s/940329.html]

                    The same report claims:
                    Enquiries were made for any trace of the "Mile End job in the public-house next the Syndicate," to which the lunatic referred on his arrest. It was discovered that next to the Jewish Synagogue, in the East End, there is a public-house, and that during the Jack the Ripper period of 1888 some disturbance was one night caused at the bar of the public-house by a fallen woman screaming out that " Jack the Ripper" was talking to her. She had been drinking and conversing with a young man of slight build and of sallow features, and she pointed to him when she made the startling announcement that he was "Jack the Ripper". The man immediately took to his heels, departing with an alacrity that prevented all pursuit. The incident was but briefly reported in the daily papers under the heading of "Another Jack the Ripper Scare." But a description of the man whom the woman pointed out was given as that of a man of 27 or 28 years, slight of build, and Jewish appearance, his face being thin and sallow. This led to the theory entertained for some time that "Jack the Ripper" was a Jew. The public-house incident took place about the middle of September.

                    Chris George suggests that there was only one synagogue in Mile End in 1888 - at 39 Dunk Street in Mile End New Town - so that is probably the one referred to.

                    Given the large Jewish population of Mile End - Old and New Towns - in 1888 and the large number of small religious societies (or chevras), I'm sceptical about the claim that there was only one synagogue in Mile End at the time. But obviously there is something wrong with the claim that this incident was reported under the heading of "Another Jack the Ripper Scare" about the middle of September 1888. Either the dating is badly wrong, or this part of the report is a fabrication.

                    Comment

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