The only patient who fits Anderson's account?

[fido]

Only one brief thing I should add. "The only patient who fits" should have added to it, "and could conceivably have been the Ripper". Aaron Kosminski can be forced into a fit with Anderson, and made to look very precise if you choose to put a lot of weight on the cranky Victorian theory that masturbation led to madness (deriving from the fact that dementia may suppress the inhibition against masturbating publicly) and link it to Anderson's mention of "unmentionable vices". But Kosminski's two crime-free years, demented incapacity to exercise a sudden self-control like (say) the Green River killer, and recorded harmless hallucinations make him a non-starter as the Ripper. (Conversely he cannot be made to fit the Swanson marginalia: the only thing which does comfortably fit them is the proposal that somehow Swanson had heard details of both Cohen and Kosminsky and believed them all to be details about the same man. There are still, of course, serious problems - about the difficulty of examing a suspect in a case this big, about the alleged release of an identified perpetrator, and about an ID parade at 'the Seaside Home'.)
I've only ever been asked one really challenging question about my Cohen-Kosminsky position, and not surprisingly it came from Paul Begg. He asked what I would have done if Kosminsky had immediately come to light on my first trawl through Colney Hatch records. I don't know whether I'd have had the confidence, clarity and courage to face my commissioning publishers with the news that I had been quite wrong and Anderson was pushing a barmy theory. Happily I'd already found Cohen and declared that he had been confused with someone else before I discovered Kosminsky, which itself was before the publication of the Swanson marginalia.
All the best,
Martin Fido

[Ms. Fade]

Just a small point - confusion over the spelling of surnames is something I come across time and time again when studying historical documents, particularly in official documents. Settled spellings of names only really came about in the 18th/19th centuries - just look at the huge variations in the spellings of William Shakespeare's name in official documents, for example! Searching census records for my own ancestors (who emigrated to London from Germany in the mid 19th century), I came across at least three different variations of their surname, most of which were probably due to English census takers misunderstanding my ancestors' surname, or not being able to spell it.

Might this possibly be adding to the confusion here?

Ms.F

[Jeff Leahy]

Just a quick post

I agree with most of what you say. I've been digging up some facsinating new stuff and there seems to be some contradiction on opinion world wide..

Nash isnt a great example but for an introduction I thought it an interesting veiwiing suggestion..an easy watch.

I'm putting some stuff together and would welcome your input on a new thread. There are a few posters with some experience in the area.

Anyway thank you for your input.

Must dash...the wifes shopping needs picking up!

Pirate

[claire]

Hi all, first off (first post), what a great site! Some fascinating debate.

Mike, I agree that caution should be used when attributing a diagnosis to someone after the fact (and about a Beautiful Mind being a decent introduction to schizophrenia--given Nash's apparent recovery, the diagnosis is still shaky). Whilst, as Pirate Jack notes, there are many schizophrenics who are high-functioning, I also don't think it's worth making comparisons between contemporary examples and those from the LVP. Treatments are vastly improved now, and the fact is that, untreated, schizophrenia tends to become more severe, more overwhelming. Furthermore, it is next to useless to make mention of 'schizophrenia' per se, since there are various types. The disorganised and catatonic schizophrenics are less likely to be able to plan and execute murder, and avoid detection (simply because they are more likely to be unable to see the reason why they should avoid it--hence the classic M'Naghten insanity defence). Paranoid schizophrenics are more likely to be able to act in this manner (and, not incidentally, are more likely to demonstrate an 'encapsulated' disorder--that is, it is not apparent all of the time). Nevertheless, statistically (yes, yes, I know!! ), paranoid schizophrenia tends to have a much later onset (typically late 30s to early 40s, although this picture seems to be changing in recent times, probably because of the increased drug use/self-medication of those prone to the illness).

Kosminski's behaviour may well indicate early onset of the illness...particularly given his age. At this point in the illness, he would have been able to function 'normally' for much of the time, so would certainly not have been 'deranged.' And, for the record, if he were the perpetrator, I don't think there has to be a necessary causal link between any schizophrenia and the murders.

Anyhow, sorry, a bit rambling for a first post!

[The Good Michael]

Pirate jack,

It is inappropriate to steer a newbie down the path of schizophrenia. I too, believe Kosminski may have had some symptoms, but it's hardly set in stone, and incredibly misleading to tell someone to watch A Beautiful Mind to make a comparison. This is the stuff that gets we Polish Jew believers in trouble. I suggest caution.

Cheers,

Mike

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello,everyone.


The story of Cohen is fascinating.You guys really know your stuff!

To me,Kosminski,Cohen,Ostrog were all men with noticeable and obvious derangement.
Especially Kosminski and from what I've read,Cohen. I've seen Kosminski's picture and he looks absolutely freaky. Maybe the officers who wrote down their suspicions were operating on the belief that a mentally ill person had done these terrible things. The alternative was too awful. A person completely sane and not demented had committed these terrible acts.It had to be a lunatic.

I have never been able to believe that JTR had some form of mental illness. If he did and his mind was not under his control,why weren't there any attacks during the day? Why didn't people notice his obvious derangement and report him to the proper authorities? A deranged man in the grip of psychosis would have went about attacking women anytime and anywhere. He wouldn't have had any control of himself or his homicidal impulses.


I don't think JTR had any sort of mental disorder. Sure,he was a psychopath but his mind was clear as crystal,in my opinion. He was able to go out and stalk,plan his attacks,act quickly,and be able to escape without drawing attention to himself. Jack was one cool customer. In my opinion,that speaks to a mind unclouded by mental illness.

Hi Nicola

Welcome to the kosminski debate. Yes there are some people around here that know there stuff. Chris Rob and martin, would probably be considered amoungst the leading experts on the subject in the world.

I beleive your making a common mistake when considering Kosminski as derranged in 1888. He was 22 - 23 years old and possibly in the first stage of an illness known as Schizophrenia.

Following a recent discussion with another excellent poster, I am hoping to create a new thread on the condition over the coming week (olympics allowing) on the subject of schizophrenia and Aaron Kosminski.

In the mean time an excellent starting piont might be to track down a film starring Russel Crow called 'A Beautiful Mind'..its a little Hollywood but gives you a sense of what your dealing with...

Hope to catch you again

A humble Pirate

[Nicola]

Nicola,

How did you come upon Kosminski's photo? I think we'd all love to see what he looked like.

Mike

Hello,Michael!

I apologize,too much Jack Daniels. I was looking at the pic of George Chapman on the site when I was typing.He was one creepy looking guy.

I am so sorry for the error.

[The Good Michael]

Nicola,

How did you come upon Kosminski's photo? I think we'd all love to see what he looked like.

Mike

[Nicola]

Hello,everyone.


The story of Cohen is fascinating.You guys really know your stuff!

To me,Kosminski,Cohen,Ostrog were all men with noticeable and obvious derangement.
Especially Kosminski and from what I've read,Cohen. I've seen Kosminski's picture and he looks absolutely freaky. Maybe the officers who wrote down their suspicions were operating on the belief that a mentally ill person had done these terrible things. The alternative was too awful. A person completely sane and not demented had committed these terrible acts.It had to be a lunatic.

I have never been able to believe that JTR had some form of mental illness. If he did and his mind was not under his control,why weren't there any attacks during the day? Why didn't people notice his obvious derangement and report him to the proper authorities? A deranged man in the grip of psychosis would have went about attacking women anytime and anywhere. He wouldn't have had any control of himself or his homicidal impulses.


I don't think JTR had any sort of mental disorder. Sure,he was a psychopath but his mind was clear as crystal,in my opinion. He was able to go out and stalk,plan his attacks,act quickly,and be able to escape without drawing attention to himself. Jack was one cool customer. In my opinion,that speaks to a mind unclouded by mental illness.

[Jeff Leahy]

It would be useful to have the known time frames worked out..

You must remember that schizophrenics are often high achievers. My brother attends many university students.

It was once suggest to me (not my brother) that schizophrenia is a form of brain 'over load' to many thoughts wizing around unable to escape. Or by others that it is similar to LSD in experience. Certainly my brother is concerned by the current use of 'Skunk' in our society and believes it responsible for some problems.

Back to Aaron, its possible he was highly intelligent as a young man, the family golden boy rather than 'embaracement' especially academically.

Rob, you once suggested to me that if Aaron had gone into a private asylum it would explain the belief that he had died in an asylum at an earlier time..

The kosminski family may well have been wealthy enough to have afforded this?

Have you any more thoughts or ideas on this theory? It would explain a lot.

I still believe that your idea's are the simplest and most rational answers to the whole Jack the Ripper problem.

Yours Jeff

[The Good Michael]

Jeff,

I agree with your post re: Kosminski. Another thing not taken into consideration is the news article showing Kosminski appearing before a magistrate about the behavior of a dog seemingly in his care. The article appears to show some lucidity on his part, if not a bit of mischievous humor. I think Chris posted the clipping and it was an eye-opener, though one article is hardly definitive of anything.

Cheers,

Mike

[Jeff Leahy]

And I reiterate, if it is ever shown that Anderson really did mean Kosminsky, then I dismiss Anderson and his theory as dead wrong. Kosminsky's record show that he wasn't th sort of self-controlled figure who could rein himself in like the Green River murderer for a period of years.
All the best,
Martin F

Dear Chris, Chris, Martin and Rob

Firstly many thanks for your interesting and inciteful posts.

There are just a couple of points I'd like to raise. Firstly Martin I'm not totally convinced that your accessment of Aaron Kosminski's mental condition is correct.

If Aaron was suffer from Schizophrenia his condition is partencially consistant with how we would expect a Jack the Ripper suffering from the same condition to behave. Schizophrenic serial killers are extremely rare but it is not unusual for schizophrenics to become completely harmless once taken out of society. It is difficult to make comparrissons with the likes of Peter Sutcliff (who is by no means a typical schizophrenic) because of modern drugs and treatments.

My brother who works on a regular basis with suffers of the condition described to me how the illness goes through phazes known as psychotic episodes. These early psychotic episodes typically start between the age of 19-22. They last for a period of 12 to 18 weeks..

An age that clearly matches Aaron Kosminski's and a period which mirrors the time period known as the Autumn of terror. The illness would progress over a period of time in waves, the sufferer appering to get better and then relapsing into a worse condition until they reach a faze in their late thirties known as burn out. There is no reason to beleive that Jack the Ripper would necessarily be a raving and obviously violent homicidal murderer..

Indeed logic would dictate that JtR was plausable enough to his victims.

In my brothers opinion it is possible that Aaron Kosminski and JtR were one of the same person. If they suffered from Schizophrenia.

Re: Kaminsky. The reason given for Kaminsky's/Cohen mental condition is/was syphilis....My brother believes mental deteriation of suffers of this condition would have happened over a much longer time frame than the few years required for this theory. It takes some time for a sufferer of syphilis to go mad, many years.

Anyway many thanks again for your posts.

Yours Jeff

PS I do appologuise for my spelling I suffer from dyslexia. Is there any chance you could put more gaps in your posts Martin? I end up in all sorts of problems trying to read them..many thanks.

[Chris]

In my copy of Farson the name in Macnaghten's notes is transcribed as KOSMANSKI (see below)

Mine too, so Martin Fido's comment puzzles me.

I wonder whether he was thinking of McCormick (revised edition, paperback, 1970), who says that Kosminski was "possibly a misspelling for Karminski", though I'm not clear why.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Rob
In my copy of Farson the name in Macnaghten's notes is transcribed as KOSMANSKI (see below)
Regards
Chris

[Robert]

Swanson's comments don't seem to be internally consistent whichever K-ski he's talking about. He implies that the murders ceased because the suspect knew he'd been identified - then says that the suspect was watched by police round the clock, and that he was incarcerated within a very short time - two more excellent reasons why no more murders were committed, but which work against the first reason (that the suspect knew he'd been identified).