The only patient who fits Anderson's account?

[Nicola]

Hello,everyone.


The story of Cohen is fascinating.You guys really know your stuff!

To me,Kosminski,Cohen,Ostrog were all men with noticeable and obvious derangement.
Especially Kosminski and from what I've read,Cohen. I've seen Kosminski's picture and he looks absolutely freaky. Maybe the officers who wrote down their suspicions were operating on the belief that a mentally ill person had done these terrible things. The alternative was too awful. A person completely sane and not demented had committed these terrible acts.It had to be a lunatic.

I have never been able to believe that JTR had some form of mental illness. If he did and his mind was not under his control,why weren't there any attacks during the day? Why didn't people notice his obvious derangement and report him to the proper authorities? A deranged man in the grip of psychosis would have went about attacking women anytime and anywhere. He wouldn't have had any control of himself or his homicidal impulses.


I don't think JTR had any sort of mental disorder. Sure,he was a psychopath but his mind was clear as crystal,in my opinion. He was able to go out and stalk,plan his attacks,act quickly,and be able to escape without drawing attention to himself. Jack was one cool customer. In my opinion,that speaks to a mind unclouded by mental illness.

[The Good Michael]

Nicola,

How did you come upon Kosminski's photo? I think we'd all love to see what he looked like.

Mike

[Nicola]

Nicola,

How did you come upon Kosminski's photo? I think we'd all love to see what he looked like.

Mike

Hello,Michael!

I apologize,too much Jack Daniels. I was looking at the pic of George Chapman on the site when I was typing.He was one creepy looking guy.

I am so sorry for the error.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello,everyone.


The story of Cohen is fascinating.You guys really know your stuff!

To me,Kosminski,Cohen,Ostrog were all men with noticeable and obvious derangement.
Especially Kosminski and from what I've read,Cohen. I've seen Kosminski's picture and he looks absolutely freaky. Maybe the officers who wrote down their suspicions were operating on the belief that a mentally ill person had done these terrible things. The alternative was too awful. A person completely sane and not demented had committed these terrible acts.It had to be a lunatic.

I have never been able to believe that JTR had some form of mental illness. If he did and his mind was not under his control,why weren't there any attacks during the day? Why didn't people notice his obvious derangement and report him to the proper authorities? A deranged man in the grip of psychosis would have went about attacking women anytime and anywhere. He wouldn't have had any control of himself or his homicidal impulses.


I don't think JTR had any sort of mental disorder. Sure,he was a psychopath but his mind was clear as crystal,in my opinion. He was able to go out and stalk,plan his attacks,act quickly,and be able to escape without drawing attention to himself. Jack was one cool customer. In my opinion,that speaks to a mind unclouded by mental illness.

Hi Nicola

Welcome to the kosminski debate. Yes there are some people around here that know there stuff. Chris Rob and martin, would probably be considered amoungst the leading experts on the subject in the world.

I beleive your making a common mistake when considering Kosminski as derranged in 1888. He was 22 - 23 years old and possibly in the first stage of an illness known as Schizophrenia.

Following a recent discussion with another excellent poster, I am hoping to create a new thread on the condition over the coming week (olympics allowing) on the subject of schizophrenia and Aaron Kosminski.

In the mean time an excellent starting piont might be to track down a film starring Russel Crow called 'A Beautiful Mind'..its a little Hollywood but gives you a sense of what your dealing with...

Hope to catch you again

A humble Pirate

[The Good Michael]

Pirate jack,

It is inappropriate to steer a newbie down the path of schizophrenia. I too, believe Kosminski may have had some symptoms, but it's hardly set in stone, and incredibly misleading to tell someone to watch A Beautiful Mind to make a comparison. This is the stuff that gets we Polish Jew believers in trouble. I suggest caution.

Cheers,

Mike

[claire]

Hi all, first off (first post), what a great site! Some fascinating debate.

Mike, I agree that caution should be used when attributing a diagnosis to someone after the fact (and about a Beautiful Mind being a decent introduction to schizophrenia--given Nash's apparent recovery, the diagnosis is still shaky). Whilst, as Pirate Jack notes, there are many schizophrenics who are high-functioning, I also don't think it's worth making comparisons between contemporary examples and those from the LVP. Treatments are vastly improved now, and the fact is that, untreated, schizophrenia tends to become more severe, more overwhelming. Furthermore, it is next to useless to make mention of 'schizophrenia' per se, since there are various types. The disorganised and catatonic schizophrenics are less likely to be able to plan and execute murder, and avoid detection (simply because they are more likely to be unable to see the reason why they should avoid it--hence the classic M'Naghten insanity defence). Paranoid schizophrenics are more likely to be able to act in this manner (and, not incidentally, are more likely to demonstrate an 'encapsulated' disorder--that is, it is not apparent all of the time). Nevertheless, statistically (yes, yes, I know!! ), paranoid schizophrenia tends to have a much later onset (typically late 30s to early 40s, although this picture seems to be changing in recent times, probably because of the increased drug use/self-medication of those prone to the illness).

Kosminski's behaviour may well indicate early onset of the illness...particularly given his age. At this point in the illness, he would have been able to function 'normally' for much of the time, so would certainly not have been 'deranged.' And, for the record, if he were the perpetrator, I don't think there has to be a necessary causal link between any schizophrenia and the murders.

Anyhow, sorry, a bit rambling for a first post!

[Jeff Leahy]

Just a quick post

I agree with most of what you say. I've been digging up some facsinating new stuff and there seems to be some contradiction on opinion world wide..

Nash isnt a great example but for an introduction I thought it an interesting veiwiing suggestion..an easy watch.

I'm putting some stuff together and would welcome your input on a new thread. There are a few posters with some experience in the area.

Anyway thank you for your input.

Must dash...the wifes shopping needs picking up!

Pirate

[Ms. Fade]

Just a small point - confusion over the spelling of surnames is something I come across time and time again when studying historical documents, particularly in official documents. Settled spellings of names only really came about in the 18th/19th centuries - just look at the huge variations in the spellings of William Shakespeare's name in official documents, for example! Searching census records for my own ancestors (who emigrated to London from Germany in the mid 19th century), I came across at least three different variations of their surname, most of which were probably due to English census takers misunderstanding my ancestors' surname, or not being able to spell it.

Might this possibly be adding to the confusion here?

Ms.F

[fido]

Only one brief thing I should add. "The only patient who fits" should have added to it, "and could conceivably have been the Ripper". Aaron Kosminski can be forced into a fit with Anderson, and made to look very precise if you choose to put a lot of weight on the cranky Victorian theory that masturbation led to madness (deriving from the fact that dementia may suppress the inhibition against masturbating publicly) and link it to Anderson's mention of "unmentionable vices". But Kosminski's two crime-free years, demented incapacity to exercise a sudden self-control like (say) the Green River killer, and recorded harmless hallucinations make him a non-starter as the Ripper. (Conversely he cannot be made to fit the Swanson marginalia: the only thing which does comfortably fit them is the proposal that somehow Swanson had heard details of both Cohen and Kosminsky and believed them all to be details about the same man. There are still, of course, serious problems - about the difficulty of examing a suspect in a case this big, about the alleged release of an identified perpetrator, and about an ID parade at 'the Seaside Home'.)
I've only ever been asked one really challenging question about my Cohen-Kosminsky position, and not surprisingly it came from Paul Begg. He asked what I would have done if Kosminsky had immediately come to light on my first trawl through Colney Hatch records. I don't know whether I'd have had the confidence, clarity and courage to face my commissioning publishers with the news that I had been quite wrong and Anderson was pushing a barmy theory. Happily I'd already found Cohen and declared that he had been confused with someone else before I discovered Kosminsky, which itself was before the publication of the Swanson marginalia.
All the best,
Martin Fido

[empty]

Martin,

A quick question if I may. I seem to remember that you mention Nathan Kaminsky being treated for syphillis shortly after an attack on woman that you'd "already identified as looking like Jack the Ripper learning his trade". Forgive me if I've got this wrong somewhere, but are you able to elaborate on this, please?

Many thanks.

[Sara]

I've know a very few schizophrenics and I can confirm that some of them appear very rational and intelligent most of the time, even when they begin to go into an 'episode'. Equally, manic depressives are perfectly rational until they go into one or other of the extremes of their mental state. They too can become very violent when in the manic phase - I was once attacked by a very dear friend in the full manic state, who had earlier begged me to confine her to medical care if I felt she was 'going over' again.... something I couldn't do alas as only her family had that power, and they were 'in denial'.

Another thing which rarely gets mentioned is how freely drugs which are now classed as highly dangerous, were available in Victorian times, many of them morphine-derived. Self-medication was fairly normal right across society and many became addicted to drugs like chloral. It's perfectly possible that the Ripper used drugs but there would be no records of such usage of course. It's clear too from current medical records and surveys that misuse of drugs is to blame for a great deal of current schizophrenia in the young.

A final point: as I've mentioned elsewhere on the site, I didn't really know Dan Farson when he wrote his Ripper book but I got to know him very well later and even worked with him. He had a very cavalier approach to research and tended to make things up if they 'seemed right', not check primary sources, and so forth. I'd be very wary of taking anything he wrote as gospel. (He was very interesting however on the Jeremy Thorpe case LOL - knowing Thorpe really well as he did!)

[Chris]

A final point: as I've mentioned elsewhere on the site, I didn't really know Dan Farson when he wrote his Ripper book but I got to know him very well later and even worked with him. He had a very cavalier approach to research and tended to make things up if they 'seemed right', not check primary sources, and so forth. I'd be very wary of taking anything he wrote as gospel. (He was very interesting however on the Jeremy Thorpe case LOL - knowing Thorpe really well as he did!)

Could you expand on what you mean by "making things up"? Obviously that's quite a serious thing to say about somebody, and I'd view it as being in a very different category from "not checking primary sources", or writing inaccurately from memory.

Maybe you could give an example of the kind of thing you're thinking of?

[Observer]

Hi Sara

I've know a very few schizophrenics

A very good freind of mine, sadly no longer with us, was a schizophrenic, to someone who did not know him he would undoubtly appear quite normal, but I knew him for many years, and got to recognise certain traits which pointed to his ilness. The overwhelming impression I got revovled around his need for acceptance, however, the slighest negativity aimed his way led to his belief that he was worthless.

It was very frustrating at times, one needed to watch what one said, and I knew when I had said something out of place, that is out of place considering his state of mind, for he would brood and I could see he was processsing what I had just said. He was on strong medication, but he still had this great doubt of the World, a very insecure man.

He could also be a very violent man, and being of a rather large muscular build, it wasnt just my concern for him which made me gaurd my comments , my own physical well being was aslo a very important factor hehe.

All in all he was a good family man, as I said, to the casual observer no different to any man in the street, but believe me he was not well, not well at all

I don't know if the above is typical of schizopgrenia, but that's what I observed.

All the best

Observer

[empty]

Cohen (not Kaminsky?)

I have to say that the Cohen suspect has always looked a highly likely one to me. I can't claim to be a Ripper expert by any means, but one or two things strike me and I'd like to lay them out, as much to confirm things for myself as to ask questions or challenge other views. However, I'd welcome any feedback.

If Anderson is right, and he seems very firm in his assertions, Swanson and MacNaughton must have been outsiders to the "resolution" of this case and yet I had understood that Anderson and Swanson worked closely together? Anderson states it was a positively ascertained fact that the killer was a Polish Jew who was incarcerated shortly after the last murder (MK). This points to Cohen and no other.

Does anyone know the exact dates of Cohen's transfer to the workhouse and then to Colney Hatch?

Anderson does not identify the suspect, nor indicate that his name (if not Cohen) was ever established, nor whether he had family. This could easily be Cohen, but definitely can't be Kosminski.

However, Swanson adds to the story and it is his additions which seem to demonstrate a garbling of this account. If Cohen's name was not known, he could not have confused Kaminsky with Kosminski. He also says that this suspect was returned to his brother's house - yet Anderson seems not to have known this, which I find too incredible. Originally, Cohen was called Aaron Davis Cohen when picked up - maybe this was his real name after all?

So, there is nothing to say that Anderson knew Cohen to be actually called Kaminsky, and if he did, why was his name not changed back when he had been correctly identified?

Swanson may have heard about the identification of the suspect by the witness, but it seems unlikely he was involved in any signifcant manner, considering his version of events is so confused with Kosminski's fate - and I cannot believe that Swanson would have got confused over a case of this magnitude if he was involved in its resolution.

No one seems to have identified Cohen as Kaminsky at the time, whether that was his name or not, so any confusion associated to the similarity with Kosminski's name would seem to be irrelevant. The confusion could only have come from Swanson hearing about "a young Polish Jew who wound up in Colney Hatch" and later assumed this was Kosminski based on MacNaughton's own confusion/misinformation.

MacNaughton seems sure that Kosminski was incarcerated in March 1889, but we know that to be false, and it seems likely that Cohen was incarcerated in December 1888 or January 1889, therefore demonstrating how far out of the loop MacNaughton must have been.

So, in conclusion, if Anderson really did know who the killer was, he needn't have been Kaminsky, but it seems highly likely he was Cohen.

Swanson cannot have been involved in Cohen's incarceration or identification, but his marginalia is mis-reporting what he later heard about the case (possibly from Anderson himself, but several years after the event).

MacNaughton names Kosminski as a suspect (possibly deliberately intending to refer to Kosminski rather than Cohen), and Swanson appears to have leapt on this name as that of Cohen, whose name he had maybe not been told, but whose identity matched Cohen's description.

The 'resolution' therefore was a quiet relief for Anderson who felt sure his man was incarcerated, after which he could tell the force to wind down their enquiries. However, clearly the resolution was an almost private matter for Anderson, which is why most officers at the time considered the case had never been solved. Maybe even Anderson was careful not to test his assuredness by making a professional announcement which turned out to be a false dawn!!! Perhaps Anderson muttered something of the event to Swanson years later in response to a "Hey Guv, what really happened to Jacky?" and was briefly told about an identification and incarceration of a "young Polish jew".

Feel free to correct me or disagree, but it seems to me that Swanson is the one who has muddied the water here by what must be a garbling of facts based on hearsay rather than involvement himself in the actual resolution of the case.

Maybe Kaminsky was Cohen, but Anderson may not have known that and it doesn't matter anyway. It seems to me that, if there were no Swanson marginalia, commentators might feel more confident in stating that, IF Anderson really did know the murderer's identity, Cohen was almost certainly JtR.

[Voyeur]

This is probably the most exciting and interesting suspect for me. I strangely love the intrigue regarding the Kosminsky/Kaminsky/Cohen scenario.