Lack of Threads

[Fisherman]

Had a prostitute been found dead on the streets of Whitechapel in January 1889 with wounds similar to Ellen Bury... what are the chances of her being considered among the canonicals?

Look at MacKenzie and Coles, and there´s your answer.

[Fisherman]

Harry D: You don't see the difference in murdering in his own home compared to murdering on the streets or in a whore's bedroom with a broken window?

Yes I do - and I see the similarities too: neither place was sound isolated.

We're also assuming that the murder was premeditated, when in his own words he killed her in a drunken rage.

If he killed in a state where he culd not control the surrounding parameters, then that tells him apart from the Ripper.

On top of that, if Bury HAD cut Ellen's throat, it would've definitely buggered up his accidental death defence.

That ploy was never going to work anyway.


Maybe Polly began to regain consciousness and this was the origin of the Ripper's throat-cutting?

It´s world of maybe´s - some more, some less credible.

[Billiou]

Here's the Morning Post

Thanks. That is what was reported in The Morning Advertiser. So it was syndicated.
I point out this was posted in the past by David Orsam [http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...=9510&page=2]:
Reporter A (The Times)
Reporter B (The Star)
Reporter C (Daily News/East London Observer/Daily Chronicle, Illustrated Police News/Eastern Argus & Borough of Hackney Times)
Reporter D (Morning Post, Morning Advertiser, Evening Standard)
Reporter E (Daily Telegraph, Lloyd's Weekly News, Weekly Dispatch)
Reporter F (The Echo)
Reporter G (Evening News)
Reporter H (Evening Post)
Reporter I (Globe)
Reporter J (Birmingham Daily Post, Pall Mall Gazette)

[drstrange169]

Here's the Morning Post

[drstrange169]

Hello Billiou,

I'm at work at the moment but, I do have these to two available.
The Standard and the Western Daily Press.

[John Wheat]

Anger, rage. He stabbed her a number of times. He didn't cut her open, he didn't slice anything off. He just stabbed her.

Most of the time when someone is stabbed beyond what is necessary to kill them, it's an act of emotions. This happens more often with spouses then strangers, unless the stranger was so angered at the other person for something that triggered an emotional response.

With some Killers you get that kind of emotional response. Some victims as well will take out a lot of anger on an abusive spouse, boyfriend, parent etc.

It's well documented if you want to look it up. Bizarre, sick stuff.

Columbo

To Colombo

It's worth noting that abdominal mutilation is actually very rare.

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

She was killed for her money.

Secondarily, Bury was a misogynist and a psychopath, possible accounting for the mutilations.

Ellen's money had largely been squandered by Bury by the time he murdered her. Bury being a misogynistic and a psychopath are indicator's that he may have been Jack.

[Columbo]

I wouldn't be so harsh on The Echo:

The Echo:
Police-constable George Myzen, 55 H, said that on Friday morning, at twenty minutes past four, he was at the corner of Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a man, who looked like a carman, said, "You are wanted in Buck's-row." Witness now knew the man to be named Cross, and he was a carman. Witness asked him what was the matter, and Cross replied, "A policeman wants you; there is a woman lying there." Witness went there, and saw Constable Neil, who sent him to the station for the ambulance.
The Coroner - Was there anyone else there then? - No one at all, Sir. There was blood running from the throat towards the gutter.
By the Coroner - There was another man in company of Cross when the latter spoke to witness. The other man, who went down Hanbury-street, appeared to be working with Cross.
By the Jury - Witness went to the spot directly Cross told him, and did not stop to knock any one up.

The Morning Advertiser:
Police constable George Maizen (sic), 55 H, said - On Friday morning last, at 20 minutes past four, I was at the end of Hanbury street, Baker's row, when someone who was passing said, "You're wanted down there" (pointing to Buck's row). The man appeared to be a carman. (The man, whose name is George Cross, was brought in and witness identified him as the man who spoke to him on the morning in question). I went up Buck's row and saw a policeman shining his light on the pavement. He said, "Go for an ambulance," and I at once went to the station and returned with it. I assisted to remove the body. The blood appeared fresh, and was still running from the neck of the woman.
The Coroner - There was another man in company with Cross?
The Witness - Yes. I think he was also a carman.

The Echo contains valuable info on the exchanges between the Coroner and the Jury, far more than TMA, but it compares very favourably with what TMA reported. But also, as Dusty has already pointed out in previous posts, The Echo also confuses the issue with it's apparently incorrect placement of the words "There was blood running from the throat towards the gutter" (when you compare it with the rest of the newspapers).

Very true. I didn't mean to leave the impression that I would completely disregard the Echo, but maybe try to read it more carefully and, like mentioned before, try to collate the information in a more organized manner.

Columbo

[Billiou]

Thank you sir. I will have to look at the Echo report with new eyes.

Columbo

I wouldn't be so harsh on The Echo:

The Echo:
Police-constable George Myzen, 55 H, said that on Friday morning, at twenty minutes past four, he was at the corner of Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a man, who looked like a carman, said, "You are wanted in Buck's-row." Witness now knew the man to be named Cross, and he was a carman. Witness asked him what was the matter, and Cross replied, "A policeman wants you; there is a woman lying there." Witness went there, and saw Constable Neil, who sent him to the station for the ambulance.
The Coroner - Was there anyone else there then? - No one at all, Sir. There was blood running from the throat towards the gutter.
By the Coroner - There was another man in company of Cross when the latter spoke to witness. The other man, who went down Hanbury-street, appeared to be working with Cross.
By the Jury - Witness went to the spot directly Cross told him, and did not stop to knock any one up.

The Morning Advertiser:
Police constable George Maizen (sic), 55 H, said - On Friday morning last, at 20 minutes past four, I was at the end of Hanbury street, Baker's row, when someone who was passing said, "You're wanted down there" (pointing to Buck's row). The man appeared to be a carman. (The man, whose name is George Cross, was brought in and witness identified him as the man who spoke to him on the morning in question). I went up Buck's row and saw a policeman shining his light on the pavement. He said, "Go for an ambulance," and I at once went to the station and returned with it. I assisted to remove the body. The blood appeared fresh, and was still running from the neck of the woman.
The Coroner - There was another man in company with Cross?
The Witness - Yes. I think he was also a carman.

The Echo contains valuable info on the exchanges between the Coroner and the Jury, far more than TMA, but it compares very favourably with what TMA reported. But also, as Dusty has already pointed out in previous posts, The Echo also confuses the issue with it's apparently incorrect placement of the words "There was blood running from the throat towards the gutter" (when you compare it with the rest of the newspapers).

[Billiou]

>>... but it is true that Mizen never reportedly said that he was spoken to by Paul ie that he didn't speak with two men, only with Cross.<<

You keep trying to debate a point I agree with, so there's not much to say;-)


>>While it is true that TMA was the only newspaper to report Mizens statement in first person...<<

No exclusive for them, the Telegraph, Standard, Daily News and at least two other newspapers I can't remember the names of right now also reported Mizen in the first person.

Sorry, I didn't read your post agreeing with Fish.

I have checked, in addition to the ones I quoted in my post, The Evening News and The Daily News and have only found TMA in first person for Mizen. If you could point out the other newspapers using first person I would appreciate it.

[Columbo]

She was killed for her money.

Secondarily, Bury was a misogynist and a psychopath, possible accounting for the mutilations.

I think she was out of money at that point wasn't she? Wasn't that what Bury said the fight was about?

I would agree he also was a misogynist, but lets keep the mutilations in perspective. Stabbings and mutilation are not the same thing. I don't think we want to give people the expression she was splayed out like Eddowes, because she wasn't. She was a victim with multiple stab wounds.

Columbo

[Columbo]

To Colombo

So why mutilate Ellen at all then?

Cheers John

Anger, rage. He stabbed her a number of times. He didn't cut her open, he didn't slice anything off. He just stabbed her.

Most of the time when someone is stabbed beyond what is necessary to kill them, it's an act of emotions. This happens more often with spouses then strangers, unless the stranger was so angered at the other person for something that triggered an emotional response.

With some Killers you get that kind of emotional response. Some victims as well will take out a lot of anger on an abusive spouse, boyfriend, parent etc.

It's well documented if you want to look it up. Bizarre, sick stuff.

Columbo

[Scott Nelson]

So why mutilate Ellen at all then?

She was killed for her money.

Secondarily, Bury was a misogynist and a psychopath, possible accounting for the mutilations.

[drstrange169]

>>OK, maybe Fisherman should have wrote "Mizen reportedly said" rather than "explicitly said"<<

That's all I was correcting.


>>... but it is true that Mizen never reportedly said that he was spoken to by Paul ie that he didn't speak with two men, only with Cross.<<

You keep trying to debate a point I agree with, so there's not much to say;-)


>>While it is true that TMA was the only newspaper to report Mizens statement in first person...<<

No exclusive for them, the Telegraph, Standard, Daily News and at least two other newspapers I can't remember the names of right now also reported Mizen in the first person.


>>As in anything, we should consider all the newspaper reports as a whole and try to make sense from them all.<<

Couldn't agree more, in fact I just told Columbo the same thing!

[Billiou]

>>Note: Every newspaper account opens Mizen's account with reporting that he said "a man" who was passing spoke to him.<<

Fisherman wrote,
"Mizen explicitely says that "a man" came up to him and spoke, and he never says that TWO men did. "

Again, Fisherman was incorrect. Mizen was never recorded using those words. It would be misleading if anyone thought that was a direct quote from Mizen.

>>"A journalist concocted phrase". I think "concocted" would be too strong a word. I believe, since nearly every newspaper uses the same term, that that is what Mizen must have said.<<

"...he was at the corner of Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a man ..."

is a third party summation, almost certainly, from a press agency piece, hence the duplication.

The newspapers that quoted Mizen in the first person naturally take precedence over that that paraphrased don't you think?

OK, maybe Fisherman should have wrote "Mizen reportedly said" rather than "explicitly said" but it is true that Mizen never reportedly said that he was spoken to by Paul ie that he didn't speak with two men, only with Cross.

And as for the first person/ third person idea, the newspapers reported:
The Times: “he was in Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, and a man passing said "You are wanted in Baker's-row." The man, named Cross, stated that a woman had been found there.”
The Star: “he was in Hanbury-street, Baker's-row. A man passing said to him, "You're wanted round in Buck's-row." That man was Carman Cross (who came into the Court-room in a coarse sacking apron), and he had come from Buck's-row. He said a woman had been found there.”
The Evening Post: “he was in Baker’s-row, at the corner of Hanbury-street. A man passed, who looked like a carman, and said “You are wanted round in Buck’s-row”. A carman was brought in court, and witness said he was the man.”
The Echo: “he was at the corner of Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a man, who looked like a carman, said, "You are wanted in Buck's-row." Witness now knew the man to be named Cross, and he was a carman. Witness asked him what was the matter, and Cross replied, "A policeman wants you; there is a woman lying there."”
The Daily Telegraph: “he was at the crossing, Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a carman who passed in company with another man informed him that he was wanted by a policeman in Buck's-row, where a woman was lying.”
The Morning Advertiser: “I was at the end of Hanbury street, Baker's row, when someone who was passing said, "You're wanted down there" (pointing to Buck's row). The man appeared to be a carman. (The man, whose name is George Cross, was brought in and witness identified him as the man who spoke to him on the morning in question).”
Police Illustrated News: “he was at the corner of Hanbury-street and Baker's-row, a carman passing by, in company with another man, said, "You are wanted in Buck's-row by a policeman. A woman is lying there."”

While it is true that TMA was the only newspaper to report Mizens statement in first person, when you look at all the newspapers, first person/third person makes no real difference to what was reported.

"Paraphrased" is the better word, in this case, than "concocted". Unfortunately we will have to live with paraphrasing as it was, and still is, the realm of the newspaperman. As in anything, we should consider all the newspaper reports as a whole and try to make sense from them all.