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  • Coincidences

    There seem to be a lot of "Coincidences" with Bury. Bury moves out of London shortly after Mary Jane Kelly's murder. Bury matches all the major psyche profiles of Jack the Ripper. Bury kills his wife Ellen in a similar fashion to the Ripper. Strangulation followed by post mortem mutilation. Bury's mother and eldest sister were both called Mary Jane. The chalk messages found at Bury's Dundee home. James Berry his hangman believed he was the Ripper. Ellen was a known prostitute. Bury had vd caught from a prostitute. Bury has a number of attributive's which suggest he was a psychopath.

  • #2
    Some of them are valid, but the "Mary Jane" stuff is the kind of tenuous filler you see in suspect-based books to pad them out. That was a common enough name, and it's not like the name was a trigger for the killer as only one of his final victims shared it.

    You cannot put too fine a point on the timing. If you accept MJK as the final canonical victim, as many do, then Bury's sudden decision to up sticks to Scotland under false pretences (there was no job in Dundee) would certainly explain the sudden cessation of the murders. Ripper murders end in Nov (Dec, if you include Rose Mylett), Bury moves to Dundee in Jan, and within a month there's a Ripper-esque murder? And people think this guy isn't the best suspect.

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    • #3
      To Harry D

      The main reason I included the Mary Jane stuff was it would explain the overkill on Mary Jane Kelly's murder.

      Cheers John

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      • #4
        Bury did not kill his wife in a similar fashion. At all. Strangling with a rope and a few shallow cuts to her abdomen is not the same as throat cutting and deep cuts to open a body up. There isn't ANY evidence JtR strangled anyone. No marks from a hand or ligature, no crushed windpipes, nothing besides some theorizing. It is just as likely he simply clamped a hand on their mouths and quickly slit their throats. Strangulation would have left some signs of struggle. The mutilation in the Bury case is worlds away from Jack. JtR rooted around in his victims, Bury cut up his wife to fit her in a box. These are incredibly different acts. If Bury was Jack, what he did to his wife would have probably been closer to what was done to Kelly. It would have been more personal and he had an unlimited amount of time.
        What the hangman thought is meaningless. He made some comments, that no one else agreed with, to get some drinks bought for him at the pub. He wasn't even convinced enough to include it in his autobiography and he happily went into depth on many others he executed.

        Sure, the rest is interesting. The timing of his move is interesting too. Just none of it is enough to place him on top of the list. Honestly, I haven't heard that good an argument for anyone.
        Iím often irrelevant. It confuses people.

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        • #5
          There's an interesting article in the Star, 24 December 1888, discussing the possibility that JtR might have strangled his victims:http://www.casebook.org/press_report...l?printer=true

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Shaggyrand View Post
            Bury did not kill his wife in a similar fashion. At all. Strangling with a rope and a few shallow cuts to her abdomen is not the same as throat cutting and deep cuts to open a body up. There isn't ANY evidence JtR strangled anyone. No marks from a hand or ligature, no crushed windpipes, nothing besides some theorizing. It is just as likely he simply clamped a hand on their mouths and quickly slit their throats. Strangulation would have left some signs of struggle. The mutilation in the Bury case is worlds away from Jack. JtR rooted around in his victims, Bury cut up his wife to fit her in a box. These are incredibly different acts. If Bury was Jack, what he did to his wife would have probably been closer to what was done to Kelly. It would have been more personal and he had an unlimited amount of time.
            What the hangman thought is meaningless. He made some comments, that no one else agreed with, to get some drinks bought for him at the pub. He wasn't even convinced enough to include it in his autobiography and he happily went into depth on many others he executed.

            Sure, the rest is interesting. The timing of his move is interesting too. Just none of it is enough to place him on top of the list. Honestly, I haven't heard that good an argument for anyone.
            Strangulation followed by Post Mortem mutilation sounds like Jack the Ripper to me. There is some evidence that a ligature was used in some of the C5. I suggest Bury didn't mutilate Ellen to the same extent as Mary Jane Kelly because he would have been hung as the Ripper. As it is Bury nearly escaped the hangman.

            Cheers John
            Last edited by John Wheat; 05-07-2016, 12:44 AM.

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            • #7
              To Shaggyrand

              Just who is at the top of your list and why?

              Cheers John

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              • #8
                No one. I don't have a top list.
                As for ligature strangulation, there isn't any evidence of it and the way the scenes are described it isn't that likely. The only type of strangulation that might work is blood strangulation and still there should be more signs of struggle. The mutilations are drastically different and for different purposes.
                Like I said, Bury is interesting as a discussion topic but the crimes are very different.
                Iím often irrelevant. It confuses people.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Shaggyrand View Post
                  If Bury was Jack, what he did to his wife would have probably been closer to what was done to Kelly. It would have been more personal and he had an unlimited amount of time.
                  Who says? That's only your interpretation of a hypothetical scenario based on criminal profiling, which is far from an exact science. Something we're all guilty of at times. Serial killers have been known to deviate from the norm and devolve in their habits when things begin to fall apart.

                  We know that Bury was living in the East End during the Autumn of Terror, we know that he suddenly left Whitechapel less than two months after the final canonical victim, and more importantly we know that he was a murderer with a propensity for post-mortem abdominal mutilations, a particularly rare trait for a killer. Those are the hard facts. That doesn't make him the Ripper by any means, but on the balance of evidence, what other named suspect compares?

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                  • #10
                    strangled

                    Hello Shag. There can be no doubt that both Polly and Annie were strangled. It's in the coroner's report.

                    Cheers.
                    LC

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Shaggyrand View Post
                      No one. I don't have a top list.
                      As for ligature strangulation, there isn't any evidence of it and the way the scenes are described it isn't that likely. The only type of strangulation that might work is blood strangulation and still there should be more signs of struggle. The mutilations are drastically different and for different purposes.
                      Like I said, Bury is interesting as a discussion topic but the crimes are very different.
                      Hello Shaggy

                      What evidence there is (apart from Martha and Annie - swollen face, protuding tongue), points to the victims being choked into insensibility in order to facilitate the throat-cutting. The pointers you suggest apply to strangulations resulting in death.

                      Best wishes
                      C4

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
                        Hello Shag. There can be no doubt that both Polly and Annie were strangled. It's in the coroner's report.

                        Cheers.
                        LC
                        Originally posted by curious4 View Post
                        Hello Shaggy

                        What evidence there is (apart from Martha and Annie - swollen face, protuding tongue), points to the victims being choked into insensibility in order to facilitate the throat-cutting. The pointers you suggest apply to strangulations resulting in death.

                        Best wishes
                        C4
                        Yes, they were choked. I misremembered and was more thinking about using a ligature. Sorry.

                        Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                        Who says? That's only your interpretation of a hypothetical scenario based on criminal profiling, which is far from an exact science. Something we're all guilty of at times. Serial killers have been known to deviate from the norm and devolve in their habits when things begin to fall apart.

                        We know that Bury was living in the East End during the Autumn of Terror, we know that he suddenly left Whitechapel less than two months after the final canonical victim, and more importantly we know that he was a murderer with a propensity for post-mortem abdominal mutilations, a particularly rare trait for a killer. Those are the hard facts. That doesn't make him the Ripper by any means, but on the balance of evidence, what other named suspect compares?
                        Isn't mischaracterizing the abdominal wounds on Ellen Bury the same kind of mistake? She had only a single cut that was more than superficial and penetrated the abdominal cavity. He might not have done worse to her with all the time available, if he was JtR, but he didn't even come anywhere near what he had done previously. Those wounds don't really seem that comparable to me. Could be wrong, just my take.
                        Iím often irrelevant. It confuses people.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                          Who says? That's only your interpretation of a hypothetical scenario based on criminal profiling, which is far from an exact science. Something we're all guilty of at times. Serial killers have been known to deviate from the norm and devolve in their habits when things begin to fall apart.

                          We know that Bury was living in the East End during the Autumn of Terror, we know that he suddenly left Whitechapel less than two months after the final canonical victim, and more importantly we know that he was a murderer with a propensity for post-mortem abdominal mutilations, a particularly rare trait for a killer. Those are the hard facts. That doesn't make him the Ripper by any means, but on the balance of evidence, what other named suspect compares?
                          Your absolutely right Harry D which is why no one on this thread has remotely satisfactorily explained any of the "coincidences" or named another suspect who these sorts of coincidences apply. All people bleat on about is that Ellen wasn't mutilated to the extent of Mary Jane Kelly. When its worth noting aside from Kelly none of the other suspects are even proven violent murderers.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
                            Hello Shag. There can be no doubt that both Polly and Annie were strangled. It's in the coroner's report.

                            Cheers.
                            LC
                            Hi Lynn,

                            Yes indeed. In fact, there's an interesting newspaper article which refers to Dr Phillips' opinion on the matter. Apparently, he not only believed that JtR had "considerable surgical knowledge", but also "a man who had studied the theory of strangulation." In fact, on that basis, he apparently concluded that Rose Mylett was a Ripper victim: see http://www.casebook.org/press_report...l?printer=true

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                            • #15
                              data

                              Hello Shag. Thanks.

                              Yes, difficult to keep abreast of all the data.

                              Cheers.
                              LC

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