Could Bury have been Astracan Man?

[curious]

He did have a fur lined coat in his chest - it was same case as the bloodstained belt. See the thread ''through the keyhole'' - Just saying.

Thanks, Boggles, for "just saying."

If I knew about the fur-lined coat, I'd forgotten it.

It's curious to me, but the closest sighting in appearance to Bury was Mrs. Long who thought she saw Annie Chapman. The man Long saw was barely taller than Chapman. Perfect for Bury.

Unfortunately, I'm convinced that Annie had been dead for some time before Long left for work.

Thanks again.

[Boggles]

He did have a fur lined coat in his chest - it was same case as the bloodstained belt. See the thread ''through the keyhole'' - Just saying.

[curious]

What exactly are these many known factors? The fact that he didn't mutilate Ellen Bury that much? Why would Bury hang himself. If he'd mutilated Ellen Bury to the same extent that Mary Kelly was mutilated surely he'd have known he was going to be hung as the Ripper? I think Bury expected to get away with Ellen Bury's murder.

John,
I agree with you that Bury thought he could talk his way out of Ellen's murder.

That's why he attended court as he tried to decide what to do. Whatever went on in court apparently convinced him that he could make his story convincing enough.

[curious]

I believe that's most evident in the case of Kelly...there is nothing that was done to her that resembles a goal oriented mutilation. Unless the "goal" was simply to cut pieces off her off and out of her. Polly and Annies killer wanted to access the abdomen, and remove some organs based there.

I see curiosity in the Kelly murder and can see curiosity in the escalation in the mutilations of the victims.

Tabram's murder I can see as the result of fury. Something happened between Tabram and her killer and he flew into a mad, drunken fit.

Mike Hawley, known here on Casebook as mklhawley, has written extensively about how intrigued he is "at how similar the Anatomical (Florentine) Venus display with the female lying on her back on a bed with her breasts off and her abdominal area exposed looks so much like how they found the body of Mary Kelly."

Hawley's research shows that there were Anatomical Venuses on display in the Whitechapel area.

The figurines had their internal organs on display and the organs could be lifted from the body.

Kelly has always looked like curiosity to me. After reading Hawley's articles, I can't help but wonder if that might not be a partial motive for the removal of organs of the Ripper's victims.

With Kelly, the curiosity included stripping muscles from bone and other explorations.

Is it possible our killer visited a Venus (probably numerous times) and wondered if women were really put together like that?

So, I can see one killer, who started in a fury -- wonder if she "dis-respected" him in some way. It felt good and murder became his way of dealing with disrespect.

Tommy Lynn Sells, who was executed in Texas, often killed when he was slighted or disrespected in some way, according to things I've read about him.

Did that power the Whitechapel killer?

I can see as Bury in that role in more and more ways.

[John Wheat]

And I also see that you think Bury is a prime candidate as a suspect, something which is not supported by any known evidence and discounted by many known factors.

What exactly are these many known factors? The fact that he didn't mutilate Ellen Bury that much? Why would Bury hang himself. If he'd mutilated Ellen Bury to the same extent that Mary Kelly was mutilated surely he'd have known he was going to be hung as the Ripper? I think Bury expected to get away with Ellen Bury's murder.

[Harry D]

What struggle? She had cashous in her hand for god sakes, there was no struggle in physical evidence, there was a grab and twist of her scarf and one slit across her throat. 2 seconds and silent.

That's exactly my point. You're proposing that a disgruntled punter accosted Stride and killed her. If that were the case, how did she end up in the yard with the cachous in her hand?

I didn't say a club member killed her, I said the club would be in deep trouble if the police focused on the club for primary suspects. As it was Israel changed that focus Sunday night, conveniently.

How do you claim to know any of this?

That's your instinct talking, is it? Hardly enough to discount an idea. One that has some motive evidence within witness statements. You are aware that the police speculated that she may have been dropped there?

It's not my instinct talking, it's a little thing called common sense. If Eddowes had been mutilated to the extent of someone like Alice McKenzie, that would lend a little more credibility to your theory, as her murder is the closest thing to what people regard as a 'copycat'. You seem to be falling back on this idea that the East End was a hotbed for violence, and while it's true that women were regularly abused, it's something else to rip out a woman's guts in the middle of the street and butcher her face.

Nonsense and speculative serial killer goobly goop. Nothing within the physical evidence supports a single killer from Polly to Mary...just time, and geography, and opinions.

As opposed to your pop-psychology that Mary Kelly must've been killed by someone she knew because her wounds were overkill?

Actually 3 women were extensively mutilated within 2 1/2 months. Liz wasn't mutilated at all, and Polly was mutilated to a far lesser degree than the 3 who were badly cut up

Four women all had their throats cut, suffered abdominal mutilations and three out of four had their organs removed. And you want to attribute this to no less than three different killers?

I see that logic wasn't sufficient when supposing various scenarios for you, that's fine. And I also see that you think Bury is a prime candidate as a suspect, something which is not supported by any known evidence and discounted by many known factors.

Has there ever been a case where a series of victims were killed in a very specific way and it turned out NOT to be committed by the same hand? The police were able to link together the interstate murders of someone like Ted Bundy, but you don't believe that a series of women with their throats cut and their bodies mutilated in three months within a one mile radius equals a trend?

[curious]

To curious

Fair enough. I think though that most people who responded to this thread don't seem to believe Bury is quite likely the ripper.

Cheers John

There's just never any way to gauge such things on the boards here, is there?

To my recent supposition, if Bury were to have been Astracan Man, then AM was Kelly's killer, which I'd never particularly bought into before.

So, I, at least am looking at things differently -- apparently the only one to be doing so.

ETA Dang it, those smilies show up places I don't intend. I meant for it to be at the end of my message.

[John Wheat]

Hello, John.

Not entirely convinced he was the Ripper but based on empirical evidence he has to be the outstanding candidate. Find me another suspect in the East End who's a proven mutilator of women.

I agree Harry Bury is the outstanding candidate and there isn't another suspect who's a proven mutilator of women.

Cheers John

[Michael W Richards]

If Stride had been accosted in that manner, how did she end up inside the yard without anyone hearing a struggle?

What struggle? She had cashous in her hand for god sakes, there was no struggle in physical evidence, there was a grab and twist of her scarf and one slit across her throat. 2 seconds and silent.

And if you're trying to pin this murder on the anarchists club, would they be foolish enough to murder Stride on their own doorstep? And why wouldn't they inflict some Ripper-esque injuries on Stride (as you have suggested with Eddowes) to deflect suspicion?

I didn't say a club member killed her, I said the club would be in deep trouble if the police focused on the club for primary suspects. As it was Israel changed that focus Sunday night, conveniently.

The extent of Eddowes' injuries isn't congruent with this proposed scenario. Not even the most hardened criminal is going to mess around in Mitre Square risking his life to extract a woman's internal organs and mutilate her face unless he has the same compulsions as the Ripper. It just doesn't add up, I'm afraid.

That's your instinct talking, is it? Hardly enough to discount an idea. One that has some motive evidence within witness statements. You are aware that the police speculated that she may have been dropped there?

And that's without getting into the standard explanations that the violence escalated through natural progression, because he was operating indoors, because he had a obsession with MJK from afar, or because she was a more physically appealing specimen than his previous victims, etc. All of which I find to be more plausible theories than inventing another killer who's driven by the ritualistic desire to eviscerate and dehumanize women.

Nonsense and speculative serial killer goobly goop. Nothing within the physical evidence supports a single killer from Polly to Mary...just time, and geography, and opinions.

I don't think anybody attributes all of the Whitechapel Murders (and others) to the same hand. However, you must concede that a select number of these women in Whitechapel were extensively mutilated and deprived of their organs within a three month time frame.

Actually 3 women were extensively mutilated within 2 1/2 months. Liz wasn't mutilated at all, and Polly was mutilated to a far lesser degree than the 3 who were badly cut up

I see that logic wasn't sufficient when supposing various scenarios for you, that's fine. And I also see that you think Bury is a prime candidate as a suspect, something which is not supported by any known evidence and discounted by many known factors.

[Harry D]

Fair enough. I think though that most people who responded to this thread don't seem to believe Bury is quite likely the ripper

Hello, John.

Not entirely convinced he was the Ripper but based on empirical evidence he has to be the outstanding candidate. Find me another suspect in the East End who's a proven mutilator of women.

[John Wheat]

To curious

Fair enough. I think though that most people who responded to this thread don't seem to believe Bury is quite likely the ripper.

Cheers John

[curious]

Surely the question should be was Bury Jack the Ripper? and the answer is quite possibly in my opinion.

John, I happen to agree with you that quite possibly Bury was JtR.

However there is controversy about whether Astracan Man even existed.

When I posted in this section, I expected most of the responses to be from people who already believe Bury is quite likely the Ripper, so wanted to take it one step further.

Velma

[John Wheat]

Surely the question should be was Bury Jack the Ripper? and the answer is quite possibly in my opinion.

[Harry D]

1. Elizabeth Stride was killed by a thug who mistook her for a working girl that night and was rudely rebuffed, or by someone who believed she was one of the Unfortunate spies that the police recruited.

If Stride had been accosted in that manner, how did she end up inside the yard without anyone hearing a struggle?

And if you're trying to pin this murder on the anarchists club, would they be foolish enough to murder Stride on their own doorstep? And why wouldn't they inflict some Ripper-esque injuries on Stride (as you have suggested with Eddowes) to deflect suspicion?

2. Kate Eddowes was killed by someone who thought she was going to expose his criminal activities...which I believe did not in fact include the unsolved murders she was to suggest his guilt for, ironically. The wounds inflicted were to simulate earlier murders.

The extent of Eddowes' injuries isn't congruent with this proposed scenario. Not even the most hardened criminal is going to mess around in Mitre Square risking his life to extract a woman's internal organs and mutilate her face unless he has the same compulsions as the Ripper. It just doesn't add up, I'm afraid.

3. Mary was killed by someone she knew intimately, someone whose anger with her is evident in the facial slashing and the general destruction of her. Her wounds were not intended as mimicry, but they filled that bill nicely.

With respect, Michael, that still doesn't rule out the work of the same killer.

And that's without getting into the standard explanations that the violence escalated through natural progression, because he was operating indoors, because he had a obsession with MJK from afar, or because she was a more physically appealing specimen than his previous victims, etc. All of which I find to be more plausible theories than inventing another killer who's driven by the ritualistic desire to eviscerate and dehumanize women.

Its a mistake to think other men were not killing at the very same time this Jack fellow was, particularly when we have evidence that strongly suggests it.

I don't think anybody attributes all of the Whitechapel Murders (and others) to the same hand. However, you must concede that a select number of these women in Whitechapel were extensively mutilated and deprived of their organs within a three month time frame.

[Wickerman]

Hi, Jon,

To me, the encounter between Astracan Man and MJK reads more like old friends meeting than a new client. From posts here on Casebook, it appears that a number of folks feel that MJK did know her killer quite well in advance of the evening that has gone down in history.

At the moment, I lean toward AM and MJK knowing each other.

Hi Gwyneth.
It's a reasonable assumption, the clientele of any local prostitute is not likely to change completely, they would have had many repeat customers.
Kelly had lived down at Breezers Hill, with no doubt a regular clientele of sailors, so perhaps more strangers than regulars. Whereas further uptown in Whitechapel away from the docks, the reverse is likely true, more regulars than strangers.