Could Bury have been Astracan Man?

[paul g]

R E Wolverhampton races
No racing between 1886 until 1888 in Wolverhampton due to building of new track.
first meeting at new track was on the 13th -15th august 1888 and the only meeting(s) that month

[Aethelwulf]

I enjoy your posts Athelwulf because there are little gems which not lost on everyone, like your mention of the smoking concert finery. This came up in the trial notes he wanted money from Ellen to go with his mates to a smoking concert, I wonderd when and where this may have been and what entailed, whether it would involve opium maybe not but was quite popular at the time.

Mackenzie troubles me, but most (not all) of the contemporary experts asserted that she wasn't a ripper victim.

Cheers wiggins. One of the things that interests me about Aman being real and the killer is that Bury alone amongst the more credible suspects could have pulled off the bog ordinary average Joe look and the vain prancing peacock of Aman.

The horeshoe jewell pin interests me. I have this vision in my head of Bury turning up to the races in Wolverhampton with Ellen and doing a bit of a shoulder roll thinking 'look at me I'm the Big Man' all dressed up in what he thinks is the proper attire. At the same time all of the regular race goers are looking at him and simultaneously thinking 'what a prick'!

Back on Mckenzie, 1888 whitechapel society was a melting pot of all sorts trauma, social injustice and ills and probably lots of misfits who could have accessed the most desperate and vulnerable women. We know that multiple mutilators in the same place and time are rare, but if there was one time and place it could have happened, it must be late Victorian whitechapel.

I enjoy your posts Athelwulf because there are little gems which not lost on everyone, like your mention of the smoking concert finery. This came up in the trial notes he wanted money from Ellen to go with his mates to a smoking concert, I wonderd when and where this may have been and what entailed, whether it would involve opium maybe not but was quite popular at the time.

Mackenzie troubles me, but most (not all) of the contemporary experts asserted that she wasn't a ripper victim.

[Aethelwulf]

The fact that there was another ripper style murder on the same streets of Whitechapel (Mckenzie) will always and should always overweighs a similarity of an incision done to a domestic violence victim (Ellen)

Great minds think alike, also sick minds think alike.



The Baron

I suspect you hold the majority view on this, but is it really that simple? It would be if Bury was just some random who turned up in Dundee and performed a sexually motivated mutilation. But Bury was a brutal knife wielding misogynist who was located very close to Whitechapel throughout the autumn 1888. He used at least one prostitute (and possibly married one) and can be placed as drinking and violent in Whitechapel. He first appears in the records in Oct '87, after which we hear about the first possible embryonic ripper attacks (Millwood); having left in Jan '89 there are no further unanimously viewed ripper murders.

Most people will take your view I suspect, but as you said, Bury is the only proven sexually motivated mutilator amongst the suspects. My view is that it seems a very big coincidence that someone of Bury's nature and profile was in the area and wasn't the killer. Although people tend to dismiss it fairly readily, Bury's match to the FBI profile of the killer is very striking, more so than for any other suspect IMO.

All Mckenzie's killer has in his favour is geography - as above post, the actual injuries are not of the same violence and intent as Ellen Bury. I think McKenzie's killer thought the actual method of killing was the most important and couldn't stomach the signature ritual. Bury didn't care either way about the killing but couldn't resist the impulse to indulge in the ritual.

[The Baron]

The fact that there was another ripper style murder on the same streets of Whitechapel (Mckenzie) will always and should always overweighs a similarity of an incision done to a domestic violence victim (Ellen)

Great minds think alike, also sick minds think alike.



The Baron

[Aethelwulf]

A very interesting post, A.

Do you exclude Tabram on a similar basis?

I suppose the difficulty is that Tabram is separated in time and methods by quite a bit from McKenzie. Tabram seems to belong in style to the early penknife/clasp knife attacks of Millwood and Wilson. Not that Wilson was necessarily an attempted ripper murder, just that Bury was an all round mean f****r and if he wanted money and it wasn't given, he hit out. I know it doesn't seem to carry much weight with folk on here but the Keppel et al., ripper signature paper excludes Smith, Mckenzie and Coles and includes Tabram. They know better than me and have real world experience of working on these sort of cases, so that is good enough for me.

Can I imagine Bury carrying out the Tabram attack? Certainly. If you think about how he was witnessed knocking his wife to ground without any sort of provocation when she was out looking for him, and considering that the penknife he had hidden under his pillow at night was almost certainly in his pocket when he assaulted Ellen on various occasions - what would he have done to a stranger who either provoked him, made fun of him or he just went out looking for specifically to make an attack? You could argue the murder of ellen had elements of both the early attacks - rage and blow to head, and the later mutilation.

Back to the main question of the thread. If someone put a gun to my head and forced me to give an answer as to when Kelly was murdered and by whom, I'd plump for the ~4 am scream and Aman, who was actually Bury with his bling that was remarked on by neighbours in Dundee and wearing in his dandy 'smoking concert' finery. I think it was planned well in advance under the pretext of wanting a bed for the night to go to the lord mayor's show. In his report Bond remarked that the corner of the sheet to the right of the kelly's head was much cut and saturated with blood, indicating that the face may have been covered with the sheet at the time of the attack - I think that is the origin of the scream as the sheet was initially placed over her head and alerted her. I think the snippets of conversation Hutch heard were related to Aman offering money 'you'll be alright for what I've told you' and Kelly offering the bed 'you will be comfortable'. Others will no doubt strongly disagree!

[Harry D]

The problem with Alice McKenzie's murder is that it comes sandwiched between the murders of Elizabeth Jackson & the Pinchin Street torso. This opens up a potential can of worms that might cause one to rethink the series of murders across London.

The good thing is, the chances of Ellen Bury & Alice McKenzie both being copycat murders are pretty slim.

[MrBarnett]

I don't have too much of an issue with McKenzie. The two medical reports on Ellen Bury very clearly indicate that she was the ripper victim, not the copycat attempt.

The injuries to McKenzie are basically just scratches :

• A long (seven-inch) 'but not unduly deep' wound from the bottom of the left breast to the navel.
• Seven or eight scratches beginning at the navel and pointing toward the genitalia.
• Small cut across the mons veneris.

Compare to the terminology used to describe some of the wounds on Ellen Bury:

'There was an incised wound in the centre of the abdomen, extending downwards from the umbilicus for four and a half inches. It penetrated the abdominal cavity, and through it protruded part of the omentum, and about a foot of intestine, part of which was dry and black from exposure to the air. This cut was ragged towards the lower part.' (1st medical report)

'In the middle line an incised wound opening the abdominal cavity extends vertically upwards from 1½ inch above the pubis for 4½ inches' (2nd medical report)

'Running downwards from the centre of the pubis to the outer side of the left labium was an incised wound 2 ½ inches in length, penetrating the skin and fat. On the inner side of the right labium was a wound 2 inches in length, penetrating the skin. Beginning about an inch behind the anus was an incised wound running forwards and to the left, into the perinaeum, and dividing the sphincter muscle' - (1st medical report)- This is the injury that is basically identical to one on Eddowes.

'the skin, fat and external oblique muscle are divided. (2nd medical report)

'About 1/8 inch above the middle of the groin on the left side is a vertical wound 3½ inches in extent and passing into the subcutaneous tissue' (2nd medical report)

'A second vertical incision runs from the lower edge of the pubis into the vulva, dividing the skin, the mucosa of the labium majus and the subcutaneous fat : It is also 2½ inches long and lies towards the right'(2nd medical report)

'A third incision extends from 1¼ inch posterior to the anus in the middle line and passes obliquely forwards and to the left ending between the vulva and tuberosity of the ischium and dividing the skin, superficial and deep fasciae, inferior haemorrhoidal vessels and part of the sphincter and muscle. (2nd medical report)

'an incised wound, three quarters of an inch in length and penetrating through to the muscular layer' (1st medical report)

It's a no brainer really. These wounds were inflicted by a proven mysoginst, who carried a knife, drank in Whitechapel, used prostitutes, fits many of the witness descriptions in various ways, associated with chalk messages, fits the FBI profile of the killer in pretty much every way, presence and absence bookends the murders, some clear handwriting similarities with from hell, used a very similar MO on his wife as Tabram (blow to the head, strangulation, penknife), must be the prime suspect for attacking Wilson and pretty much nailed on in my mind due to this cut to the neck evidence that he also attacked Farmer. Murdered a woman in the early hours, burned her clothes in the fire, she was wearing only a chemsie (same crime scene features as Kelly).

There is really nothing significant that ties McKenzie to the ripper in my mind. If you look at the crime scene, anyone who wanted to attack a prostitute and access her abdomen would have ended up in a dark spot her skirts would have been pulled up. For something more diagnostic you need to look at the injuries and as above, they don't tally to me. If he had knife sharp enough to cut her throat and time to make all those scratches, he could easily have done at least similar to the injuries on Ellen Bury. I think people tend to fixate on throat cutting. As pointed out in the FBI profile, this is part of the MO for killing, not the ritual signature:

'A subject will change his modus operandi as he gains additional experience. This is learned behavior. However, the personal desires and needs of the subject are expressed in the ritual aspect of a crime. The ritual is something that he must always do because it is the acting out of the fantasy. With Jack the Ripper, the target selection, the approach, the method of his initial attack, are his modus operandi. What takes place after this is the ritual. The ritual may become more elaborate as was in the last homicide case.'

In his own flat Bury didn't need to cut her throat. He began to indulge in the ritual though and was clearly worried he had gone to far with his 'worried about being apprehended as JtR' comment.

A very interesting post, A.

Do you exclude Tabram on a similar basis?

[Aethelwulf]

Not just a mutilator John, he is a proven postmortem sexual mutilator.

After reading the doctors reports, I admit I have hard time when it comes to Bury, I wish Mckenzie was not killed, then it would have been a case close to me.



The Baron

I don't have too much of an issue with McKenzie. The two medical reports on Ellen Bury very clearly indicate that she was the ripper victim, not the copycat attempt.

The injuries to McKenzie are basically just scratches :

• A long (seven-inch) 'but not unduly deep' wound from the bottom of the left breast to the navel.
• Seven or eight scratches beginning at the navel and pointing toward the genitalia.
• Small cut across the mons veneris.

Compare to the terminology used to describe some of the wounds on Ellen Bury:

'There was an incised wound in the centre of the abdomen, extending downwards from the umbilicus for four and a half inches. It penetrated the abdominal cavity, and through it protruded part of the omentum, and about a foot of intestine, part of which was dry and black from exposure to the air. This cut was ragged towards the lower part.' (1st medical report)

'In the middle line an incised wound opening the abdominal cavity extends vertically upwards from 1½ inch above the pubis for 4½ inches' (2nd medical report)

'Running downwards from the centre of the pubis to the outer side of the left labium was an incised wound 2 ½ inches in length, penetrating the skin and fat. On the inner side of the right labium was a wound 2 inches in length, penetrating the skin. Beginning about an inch behind the anus was an incised wound running forwards and to the left, into the perinaeum, and dividing the sphincter muscle' - (1st medical report)- This is the injury that is basically identical to one on Eddowes.

'the skin, fat and external oblique muscle are divided. (2nd medical report)

'About 1/8 inch above the middle of the groin on the left side is a vertical wound 3½ inches in extent and passing into the subcutaneous tissue' (2nd medical report)

'A second vertical incision runs from the lower edge of the pubis into the vulva, dividing the skin, the mucosa of the labium majus and the subcutaneous fat : It is also 2½ inches long and lies towards the right'(2nd medical report)

'A third incision extends from 1¼ inch posterior to the anus in the middle line and passes obliquely forwards and to the left ending between the vulva and tuberosity of the ischium and dividing the skin, superficial and deep fasciae, inferior haemorrhoidal vessels and part of the sphincter and muscle. (2nd medical report)

'an incised wound, three quarters of an inch in length and penetrating through to the muscular layer' (1st medical report)

It's a no brainer really. These wounds were inflicted by a proven mysoginst, who carried a knife, drank in Whitechapel, used prostitutes, fits many of the witness descriptions in various ways, associated with chalk messages, fits the FBI profile of the killer in pretty much every way, presence and absence bookends the murders, some clear handwriting similarities with from hell, used a very similar MO on his wife as Tabram (blow to the head, strangulation, penknife), must be the prime suspect for attacking Wilson and pretty much nailed on in my mind due to this cut to the neck evidence that he also attacked Farmer. Murdered a woman in the early hours, burned her clothes in the fire, she was wearing only a chemsie (same crime scene features as Kelly).

There is really nothing significant that ties McKenzie to the ripper in my mind. If you look at the crime scene, anyone who wanted to attack a prostitute and access her abdomen would have ended up in a dark spot her skirts would have been pulled up. For something more diagnostic you need to look at the injuries and as above, they don't tally to me. If he had knife sharp enough to cut her throat and time to make all those scratches, he could easily have done at least similar to the injuries on Ellen Bury. I think people tend to fixate on throat cutting. As pointed out in the FBI profile, this is part of the MO for killing, not the ritual signature:

'A subject will change his modus operandi as he gains additional experience. This is learned behavior. However, the personal desires and needs of the subject are expressed in the ritual aspect of a crime. The ritual is something that he must always do because it is the acting out of the fantasy. With Jack the Ripper, the target selection, the approach, the method of his initial attack, are his modus operandi. What takes place after this is the ritual. The ritual may become more elaborate as was in the last homicide case.'

In his own flat Bury didn't need to cut her throat. He began to indulge in the ritual though and was clearly worried he had gone to far with his 'worried about being apprehended as JtR' comment.

[The Baron]

I agree Harry Bury is the outstanding candidate and there isn't another suspect who's a proven mutilator of women.

Cheers John

Not just a mutilator John, he is a proven postmortem sexual mutilator.

After reading the doctors reports, I admit I have hard time when it comes to Bury, I wish Mckenzie was not killed, then it would have been a case close to me.



The Baron

[The Baron]

The problem is, Astracan man may very well not have been the kilker!

There were two sightings of Kelly that morning, and I didn't read anything convincing to ignore their testimonies.


The Baron

[Aethelwulf]

hi wulf
Bury owned a fur line/astrakan coat? whats the source of that?

Boggles (Wiggins) posted copies of the original inventory from the Dundee flat a while ago (through the Keyhole thread). Also noticed on there a silk sash and cravat, and something called a tile hat. I've looked this up before and all I can find as a description is 'a tall silk hat'. Clearly he liked his nice clothes and there is reference in the trial notes to Bury trying to get money out of Ellen to go to a 'smoking concert'. Quick search sounds like 'At these functions men would smoke and speak of politics while listening to live music'. Perhaps this is where he was wearing his nice clothes. I suppose he could have used the lord mayor's show the next day as a pretext for going out all smart and asking kelly for a bed for the night. That being said, I still find it difficult to dismiss Maxwell.

[Abby Normal]

As well as owning a fur-lined coat, kid gloves and having a fondness for sporting his jewellery, there is also a similar 'white linen' reference:

AMan as per Hutch:' He wore a very thick gold chain and white linen collar'

Bury: 'When he appeared in court the next day, he was described as “particularly tidy about the neck, exhibiting a good deal of white linen” (Bury website, from Dundee Advertiser)

Hutch also described Aman as walking in a 'sharp' fashion, a description also given by one of the witnesses of Farmer's attacker, who I am sure was Bury (see Bury's Neck thread).

Something else I have wondered about is Aman's 'kind of a small parcel in his left hand with a kind of strap round it'. From Hutch's description the the 'kind of' terminology suggests he is far from clear what Aman is holding. He also makes this observation from a little way off as Kelly had 'went away toward Thrawl Street' at this point and Hutch was watching. A per Farmer's man, was Hutch actually looking at a whip held in the middle to squash it flatish with the handle or part of the whip being the parcel's strap? I've always thought it odd that a parcel would have a handle and it must have been something else entirely that just looked a bit like a parcel with strap from a distance.

Finally, Hutch said he stooped down to look at Aman and see his stern face - does this mean either Hutch was very tall or Aman very short?

hi wulf
Bury owned a fur line/astrakan coat? whats the source of that?

[Aethelwulf]

As well as owning a fur-lined coat, kid gloves and having a fondness for sporting his jewellery, there is also a similar 'white linen' reference:

AMan as per Hutch:' He wore a very thick gold chain and white linen collar'

Bury: 'When he appeared in court the next day, he was described as “particularly tidy about the neck, exhibiting a good deal of white linen” (Bury website, from Dundee Advertiser)

Hutch also described Aman as walking in a 'sharp' fashion, a description also given by one of the witnesses of Farmer's attacker, who I am sure was Bury (see Bury's Neck thread).

Something else I have wondered about is Aman's 'kind of a small parcel in his left hand with a kind of strap round it'. From Hutch's description the the 'kind of' terminology suggests he is far from clear what Aman is holding. He also makes this observation from a little way off as Kelly had 'went away toward Thrawl Street' at this point and Hutch was watching. A per Farmer's man, was Hutch actually looking at a whip held in the middle to squash it flatish with the handle or part of the whip being the parcel's strap? I've always thought it odd that a parcel would have a handle and it must have been something else entirely that just looked a bit like a parcel with strap from a distance.

Finally, Hutch said he stooped down to look at Aman and see his stern face - does this mean either Hutch was very tall or Aman very short?

[Aethelwulf]

Just this morning, the thought of Bury being Astracan Man came and won't go away.


Apparently Bury was shorter than Hutchinson's guess and he was a little younger.

I believe we know:

1. Bury was "foreign" in appearance,
2. Bury liked to dress up. He enjoyed nice clothing.
3. He liked people to think he was more than he was,
4. He and Ellen went to Wolverhampton for the races,
5. He is known to have purchased jewelry for his wife while in Wolverhampton.

Why would he not have also purchased jewelry for himself?

Since it was during the races, would he have purchased "horsey" style jewelry -- the sort he might have thought horse owners themselves would wear? But being an outsider, he would most likely have bought the cheap, flashy stuff sold by vendors that undoubtedly were set up near the tracks.

George Hutchinson, as an out-of-work groom, would have spent a lot of time with the horsey, racing set. He would have been very familiar with items sold by vendors around the tracks. He would have been able to recognize those items in the dark, at a hundred paces. That's why his description could be so complete.

Also, as a groom, Hutchinson would have been watching the rich owners for years and the light spats over dark would have jumped out at him because they were all wrong for the rich character Bury was trying to portray.

Perhaps Hutchinson waited so long outside Kelly's room because he was interested in talking to Astracan Man, maybe see if he had a job or to just figure out who he was as it appeared he frequented the races too.

I suggest that Hutchinson's description threw Bury into a panic. He disposed of the jewelry and clothing detailed in all the papers. He sold his pony and cart and left town, taking Ellen because he knew she would blab about him getting rid of his clothing and jewelry and being out on the nights of the murders.

Does anyone else think Bury is a good possibility for Astracan Man?

This thought also occurred to me and I’m not so sure it is as crazy as it appears at first sight. If we assume for a moment that Hutchinson wasn’t lying (I know a lot of people have an issue with that), and we ignore the attire of Aman for a second, the man’s description isn’t so very different to other witnesses: 5/5 – 5/6, fair moustache, pale, earlier 30s, soft felt hat, Jewish look.

Next, we know two things about Aman: he liked nice clothes and jewellery. Amongst other things, Aman wore an astrakhan (fur lined) coat and kid gloves, both items Bury had in his possession when his flat was searched. Bury obviously liked nice clothes and liked to dress the part as having not been in Scotland long, he had some tweed trousers. Bury also had a range of hats, one listed as a tile hat. I’ve looked up what this means and several websites state that a tile hat was a high silk hat. In terms of jewellery, the newspaper article below shows evidence of Bury’s liking for such goods. Bury seems to have worn a collection of rings, some gold, and also splashed out on for jewellery for Ellen. As suggested in the original post, when Bury went to the races in Wolverhampton, he may even have bought some sort of naff bling horseshoe jewel pin, as observed by Hutchinson. Having been poor and worked as a peddler, now was his chance to show off with Ellen’s money. Bury strikes me as a bit of an evil Del Boy – ‘all the gear/no idea’.

Bury seems to have been vain enough and had enough money to dress as Aman. If Hutchinson is to be believed, Aman must be the prime suspect as he was still in with Kelly after 3 am. If the cry of murder at around 4 was Kelly, he may have bided his time to make sure the coast was clear. I have often thought that Kelly’s ‘you will be comfortable’ sounds like she was offering a bed for the night. Perhaps Aman said he was in town for the Lord Mayor’s Show and needed a bed and would also explain the attire.

Compared to some of the other bonkers theories on here, Bury as Aman is not all that bad!