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  • Questions about Ellen

    Sorry if I missed this somewhere—does anyone know where Ellen is buried? Anyone have any photos of the site?

    Also, has anyone conducted research on the Elliot(t) family in an effort to identify living relatives? Ellen’s sister Margaret Corney went up to Dundee in February 1889 to identify Ellen’s body, and she was also there in late March for the trial. It seems very likely she would have taken some of Ellen’s things back with her, especially Ellen’s jewelry, which seems to have been nice, either as personal remembrances or as things to sell. It also seems very likely Margaret would have received one of the Wolverhampton photos from Ellen from the time when the Burys were living in Bow. I wonder if some of that stuff might still be around today.

    You never know what’s going to turn up in attics…

    Beadle has some stuff on Ellen’s family beginning on page 69 of his book, Jack the Ripper Unmasked.
    “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

    William Bury, Victorian Murderer
    http://www.williambury.org

  • #2
    Hi Wyatt

    No mention of her here. She may have gone into a paupers' grave :

    http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...r&CRid=1974320

    Comment


    • #3
      Should have posted this link :

      https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...dundee&f=false

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks for that, Robert.
        “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

        William Bury, Victorian Murderer
        http://www.williambury.org

        Comment


        • #5
          Happy gnu year to everyone. This could be a thread where we ask a variety of questions about Bury’s wife, Ellen, and so here is another one for you: do you think that Ellen knew, or would have known, that her husband was the Ripper? I’m not convinced that she knew.

          We’ve all heard about Ellen’s remark, “Oh, Jack the Ripper is quiet now,” which she was reported to have made while the Burys were living in Dundee—but she made this remark long after the Kelly murder, and I don’t see anything particularly unusual about it. Bury’s trial included a lot of “bad character” testimony about him, and Ellen did tell things about him to her sister, Margaret, per Margaret’s trial testimony, but there’s nothing in Margaret’s testimony which suggests that Ellen suspected him of being the Ripper.

          At Bury’s trial, James Martin, Bury’s former employer, testified that on one occasion Bury “had not been home for two nights.” Where he was or who he was staying with we do not know, but it establishes that he could be gone from home for a couple of days at a time. A newspaper account of the police investigation into Bury stated “The London authorities are not inclined to believe that prisoner was connected with any of the recent atrocities in Whitechapel, as he was well known in the locality, and had never been seen out at any untimely hours.” If this report is accurate, it suggests that the police were not able to establish that Bury was in Bow on the nights or mornings of the murders—if they could have placed him in Bow at the times of the murders, they would have been able to positively rule him out. At Bury’s trial, Margaret testified that Ellen told her “he was always drinking and would let some one else do his work while he staid in the public house.” This suggests that Bury had at least one friend/associate/accomplice to whom he could have gone with his anatomical trophies for a cookout. What all of this means is that Bury might not have gone straight home following a murder, and Ellen could indeed have been in the dark about his doings.

          Bury had a trunk in which women’s trinkets “of very inferior metal,” which evidently did not belong to Ellen, were found. This trunk did contain some of Ellen’s clothing when it was unlocked and searched by the police, but Bury could have thrown some of Ellen’s clothes into this trunk following her murder to mask the fact that he had the women’s trinkets in it—when a couple has two trunks, it’s reasonable to expect they would be “his and hers” trunks, and Bury’s own clothes were found in the trunk containing the women’s trinkets. Twice when we meet this trunk in Dundee it is locked, both at Union Street and at Princes Street. If Ellen had stuck her nose into his trunk while he was out on a sawdust run, she could have discovered the trinkets and would have known that they did not belong to her. It’s possible that Bury kept this trunk locked at all times in order to keep Ellen out of it.

          Just some things to consider as we ponder, “Did Ellen know?”
          “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

          William Bury, Victorian Murderer
          http://www.williambury.org

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
            We’ve all heard about Ellen’s remark, “Oh, Jack the Ripper is quiet now,” which she was reported to have made while the Burys were living in Dundee—but she made this remark long after the Kelly murder, and I don’t see anything particularly unusual about it.
            To Wyatt

            Why would Ellen make the remark "Jack the Ripper is quiet now". If she didn't at least suspect Bury was Jack?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
              To Wyatt

              Why would Ellen make the remark "Jack the Ripper is quiet now". If she didn't at least suspect Bury was Jack?
              Ellen was reported to have made this remark on January 29 (Macpherson, pp.72-74). It had been quite a while since the Kelly murder. Any person could have made such a remark in conversation at that time.
              “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

              William Bury, Victorian Murderer
              http://www.williambury.org

              Comment


              • #8
                To Wyatt

                It seems to me that it would be too much of a coincidence that Ellen would make the remark "Jack the Ripper is quiet now" possibly in reference to who I and others, yourself included, regard as by far and away the strongest Ripper suspect.

                Cheers John

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                  To Wyatt

                  It seems to me that it would be too much of a coincidence that Ellen would make the remark "Jack the Ripper is quiet now" possibly in reference to who I and others, yourself included, regard as by far and away the strongest Ripper suspect.

                  Cheers John
                  Fair enough. I think it’s possible that Ellen knew he was the Ripper—I’m just not convinced of it.

                  I also think it’s possible she had her suspicions but wasn’t completely sure.
                  “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

                  William Bury, Victorian Murderer
                  http://www.williambury.org

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Something I find both fascinating and sad is this statement by Margaret Robertson at Bury's trial (Margaret was the daughter of Jane Robertson, the Burys' first landlord in Dundee, and had been around the Burys for over a week before they decided to move):

                    "They seemed very affectionate."

                    So let's step back for a moment. Ellen has been married to this guy for less than a year. During that time:
                    • he has given her v.d.
                    • he beats her, and on one occasion, was observed pinning her to the bed and threatening her with a knife
                    • he has punched her in the face in public on more than one occasion
                    • he has soaked her inheritance dry
                    • he has her so concerned about the welfare of her jewelry that she takes it with her in a basket (!) when she goes to visit her sister


                    And now, in Bill's latest caper, he forges an offer of employment from a firm in Dundee. When they arrive in Scotland, he in effect tells her, "Sorry, honey, it was all a con. There's no job waiting for me here." And after all of that, she is still "very affectionate" toward him? Bury must have been quite a charmer to have had that kind of a hold over her...a charm that no doubt would have served him well with the nervous prostitutes of Whitechapel.

                    If Ellen did indeed know that Bury was the Ripper, it's perhaps not hard to see how she might have been willing to forgive that, too.
                    Last edited by Wyatt Earp; 01-06-2015, 03:13 AM.
                    “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

                    William Bury, Victorian Murderer
                    http://www.williambury.org

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
                      Something I find both fascinating and sad is this statement by Margaret Robertson at Bury's trial (Margaret was the daughter of Jane Robertson, the Burys' first landlord in Dundee, and had been around the Burys for over a week before they decided to move):

                      "They seemed very affectionate."

                      So let's step back for a moment. Ellen has been married to this guy for less than a year. During that time:
                      • he has given her v.d.
                      • he beats her, and on one occasion, was observed pinning her to the bed and threatening her with a knife
                      • he has punched her in the face in public on more than one occasion
                      • he has soaked her inheritance dry
                      • he has her so concerned about the welfare of her jewelry that she takes it with her in a basket (!) when she goes to visit her sister


                      And now, in Bill's latest caper, he forges an offer of employment from a firm in Dundee. When they arrive in Scotland, he in effect tells her, "Sorry, honey, it was all a con. There's no job waiting for me here." And after all of that, she is still "very affectionate" toward him? Bury must have been quite a charmer to have had that kind of a hold over her...a charm that no doubt would have served him well with the nervous prostitutes of Whitechapel.

                      If Ellen did indeed know that Bury was the Ripper, it's perhaps not hard to see how she might have been willing to forgive that, too.

                      Charm may have nothing to do with it, even today many women stay with men who physically and emotionally abuse them. yes and remain affectionate towards them, at least outwardly and at times it seems hold genuine affection.
                      G U T

                      There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by GUT View Post
                        Charm may have nothing to do with it, even today many women stay with men who physically and emotionally abuse them. yes and remain affectionate towards them, at least outwardly and at times it seems hold genuine affection.
                        Thanks for that, GUT. Bury does seem to line up well with the profile of a psychopath—and a common trait among psychopaths is superficial charm.
                        “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

                        William Bury, Victorian Murderer
                        http://www.williambury.org

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
                          Something I find both fascinating and sad is this statement by Margaret Robertson at Bury's trial (Margaret was the daughter of Jane Robertson, the Burys' first landlord in Dundee, and had been around the Burys for over a week before they decided to move):

                          "They seemed very affectionate."

                          So let's step back for a moment. Ellen has been married to this guy for less than a year. During that time:
                          • he has given her v.d.
                          • he beats her, and on one occasion, was observed pinning her to the bed and threatening her with a knife
                          • he has punched her in the face in public on more than one occasion
                          • he has soaked her inheritance dry
                          • he has her so concerned about the welfare of her jewelry that she takes it with her in a basket (!) when she goes to visit her sister


                          And now, in Bill's latest caper, he forges an offer of employment from a firm in Dundee. When they arrive in Scotland, he in effect tells her, "Sorry, honey, it was all a con. There's no job waiting for me here." And after all of that, she is still "very affectionate" toward him? Bury must have been quite a charmer to have had that kind of a hold over her...a charm that no doubt would have served him well with the nervous prostitutes of Whitechapel.

                          If Ellen did indeed know that Bury was the Ripper, it's perhaps not hard to see how she might have been willing to forgive that, too.
                          Hi, Wyatt Earp,
                          I agree with you that Bury seems to have had the possibility of being charming.

                          Early on, I pegged the Ripper as also being a charmer, and perhaps even a hawker, which Bury actually appears to have been at one time. Who knows that he didn't occasionally dabble in trinkets for the ladies even in his re-incarnation as a sawdust salesman?

                          Perhaps the female trinkets were from that.

                          Would Bury have admitted to Ellen that the job was a con? Or would he have been more likely to have gone off one day, pretending to check in at his new employment, then returned to weep and wail to Ellen that he'd or rather they had been done wrong and there was no job and THEY were the victims of fraud or abuse by a deceptive employer?

                          I suspect that poor Ellen was deeply in love with her husband (perhaps he was the only man who even considered marriage and she believed he truly loved her). And as someone points out, there are many, many women who stay or leave then return to abusive men, some of whom even kill them.

                          Did Ellen know Bury was the Ripper? Not sure. And I'm not sure she could be positive unless he talked during some of his drunken bouts.

                          However, IF he were out of the house every single night one of the women was murdered, she would know that for a fact, and IF his clothing had blood on it when he returned, she would know that . . .

                          Surely there would have been enough signs she had a good idea one way or the other.

                          And her remark about the Ripper being "quiet now" seems fairly broad and not necessarily telling if people were wanting to discuss the killings with the Burys since they were from the East End.

                          We don't know enough about Ellen and her intelligence to know if she would have said that in her husband's hearing as a way of letting him know she knew about him . . .

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
                            Something I find both fascinating and sad is this statement by Margaret Robertson at Bury's trial (Margaret was the daughter of Jane Robertson, the Burys' first landlord in Dundee, and had been around the Burys for over a week before they decided to move):

                            "They seemed very affectionate."

                            So let's step back for a moment. Ellen has been married to this guy for less than a year. During that time:
                            • he has given her v.d.
                            • he beats her, and on one occasion, was observed pinning her to the bed and threatening her with a knife
                            • he has punched her in the face in public on more than one occasion
                            • he has soaked her inheritance dry
                            • he has her so concerned about the welfare of her jewelry that she takes it with her in a basket (!) when she goes to visit her sister


                            And now, in Bill's latest caper, he forges an offer of employment from a firm in Dundee. When they arrive in Scotland, he in effect tells her, "Sorry, honey, it was all a con. There's no job waiting for me here." And after all of that, she is still "very affectionate" toward him? Bury must have been quite a charmer to have had that kind of a hold over her...a charm that no doubt would have served him well with the nervous prostitutes of Whitechapel.

                            If Ellen did indeed know that Bury was the Ripper, it's perhaps not hard to see how she might have been willing to forgive that, too.
                            Or just talking Ellen up and making bury look worse
                            "Is all that we see or seem
                            but a dream within a dream?"

                            -Edgar Allan Poe


                            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                            -Frederick G. Abberline

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by curious View Post
                              Hi, Wyatt Earp,
                              I agree with you that Bury seems to have had the possibility of being charming.

                              Early on, I pegged the Ripper as also being a charmer, and perhaps even a hawker, which Bury actually appears to have been at one time. Who knows that he didn't occasionally dabble in trinkets for the ladies even in his re-incarnation as a sawdust salesman?

                              Perhaps the female trinkets were from that.

                              Why would Bury be selling junk—these trinkets were described in the police inventory as being “of very inferior metal”—when he had a job as a sawdust merchant? There couldn’t have been any kind of money in that. There’s nothing in the trial testimony that suggests he was selling women’s trinkets. Also, the number of items involved is very small—it doesn’t look like Bury was in the trinket business.

                              Would Bury have admitted to Ellen that the job was a con? Or would he have been more likely to have gone off one day, pretending to check in at his new employment, then returned to weep and wail to Ellen that he'd or rather they had been done wrong and there was no job and THEY were the victims of fraud or abuse by a deceptive employer?
                              That’s a great point—he might well have devised some kind of story for Ellen. But he had been bugging her to move for some time—do you think she would have believed it?

                              I suspect that poor Ellen was deeply in love with her husband (perhaps he was the only man who even considered marriage and she believed he truly loved her). And as someone points out, there are many, many women who stay or leave then return to abusive men, some of whom even kill them.
                              She does seem to have been very devoted to him. No doubt he had an “I love you” or two up his sleeve when needed.

                              Did Ellen know Bury was the Ripper? Not sure. And I'm not sure she could be positive unless he talked during some of his drunken bouts.

                              However, IF he were out of the house every single night one of the women was murdered, she would know that for a fact, and IF his clothing had blood on it when he returned, she would know that . . .

                              Surely there would have been enough signs she had a good idea one way or the other.
                              I’m not sure why he would have told her (unless, as you say, he blurted something out when he was drunk). We have the evidence that he could be gone from home for a couple of days at a time. That would have given him the opportunity to fry up a kidney and clean his clothes before returning home. Also, he had a job that would have brought him into contact with butchers, which could explain the occasional presence of blood on his clothes. We don’t know how often Bury was away from home, and so it’s hard to judge how suspicious Ellen might have become.

                              And her remark about the Ripper being "quiet now" seems fairly broad and not necessarily telling if people were wanting to discuss the killings with the Burys since they were from the East End.
                              I agree. According to the report, she was asked about the Ripper. This was not something that she raised on her own.

                              We don't know enough about Ellen and her intelligence to know if she would have said that in her husband's hearing as a way of letting him know she knew about him . . .
                              Well, perhaps Errata will drop by with an I.Q. estimate for her as well.
                              Last edited by Wyatt Earp; 01-09-2015, 05:25 PM.
                              “When a major serial killer case is finally solved and all the paperwork completed, police are sometimes amazed at how obvious the killer was and how they were unable to see what was right before their noses.” —Robert D. Keppel and William J. Birnes, The Psychology of Serial Killer Investigations

                              William Bury, Victorian Murderer
                              http://www.williambury.org

                              Comment

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