Does anything rule Bury out?

[Sam Flynn]

This is the problem, Sam. People have preconceived ideas on how the Ripper should have acted.

It's not so much about preconceived ideas, it's just a case of going with what we know that he did.

Incidentally, that last bit is a key point: "what he did". I'm sticking to the results of the killer's actions - i.e. the physical evidence - rather than making assumptions about the motives behind his actions or his state of mind. Motives and the mind leave no fingerprints

[Harry D]

Joking apart, drunk or not, the real Ripper would have really gone to town on Ellen Bury... and he wouldn't have garotted her first, either.

This is the problem, Sam. People have preconceived ideas on how the Ripper should have acted. He wasn't caught, so none of us can state authoritatively what he would or would not have done. There is logic to what you are arguing, but I also think that a serial killer (and substance-abuser) who was losing his grip on everything might also have behaved in the manner I've presented.

Slicing the throat was a practical choice. Killing women in a public space where anyone could hear them scream out required a swift death. It also facilitated exsanguination so that he could raid the innards without making too much of a mess. William Beadle makes the point that the throat-cutting was unnecessary in Ellen Bury's case.

[Sam Flynn]

Did he "go to town" on Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes, assuming they were all kicked by the same person?

Compared to Ellen, yes, he went to town on those women. Not Stride, though, as I don't believe she was a Ripper victim; even if she were, she wasn't mutilated anyway.

Again, this argument is more applicable to Kelly and possibly Tabram, another frenzied attack.

Kelly, I'd say, more than Tabram. Kelly was killed indoors, as was Ellen Bury, and neither the manner of their deaths, nor their mutilations, even begin to compare.

[Sam Flynn]

Well, Kelly's body was certainly "demolished." However, the earlier victims were more skilfully mutilated; and Dr Phillips' argued that the motive, at least in Chapman's case, was the removal and possession of a body organ, I.e. not the destruction of the body.

True; my original post only referred to Mary Kelly, but I edited it to throw it wider. That said, Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes were much closer to the "demolished" end of the spectrum than Ellen Bury. Compared to Kelly, who was also killed indoors, Ellen got off incredibly lightly.

[John G]

Alcohol surely doesn't affect a man's performance to that degree, Abby

Joking apart, drunk or not, the real Ripper would have really gone to town on Ellen Bury... and he wouldn't have garotted her first, either.

Did he "go to town" on Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes, assuming they were all kicked by the same person? Again, this argument is more applicable to Kelly and possibly Tabram, another frenzied attack.

[John G]

Except the East End killer couldn't stop mutilating the body, practically demolishing his victims and leaving their viscera on display. In contrast, Bury barely inflicted a handful of flesh-wounds on his wife before stuffing her in a box.

Well, Kelly's body was certainly "demolished." However, the earlier victims were more skilfully mutilated; and Dr Phillips' argued that the motive, at least in Chapman's case, was the removal and possession of a body organ, I.e. not the destruction of the body.

[Sam Flynn]

slightly different circumstances sam. It's his wife, they're in his house, probably drunk off his ass.

Alcohol surely doesn't affect a man's performance to that degree, Abby

Joking apart, drunk or not, the real Ripper would have really gone to town on Ellen Bury... and he wouldn't have garotted her first, either.

[Sam Flynn]

Which ties into my theory that Bury's mind was unraveling.

The problem is, we could play the same Joker to justify anything that doesn't fit the signature of the canonical mutilation murders. (Not just with Bury, of course; there are many suspects where the "He was nuts!" card is played to get a theory out of a tight spot.)

[Abby Normal]

Except the East End killer couldn't stop mutilating the body, practically demolishing his victims and leaving their viscera on display. In contrast, Bury barely inflicted a handful of flesh-wounds on his wife before stuffing her in a box.

slightly different circumstances sam. It's his wife, they're in his house, probably drunk off his ass. Drunken row precipitated it most likely.

Re the abdominal wounds-To me it's like the boy(as in postmortem mutilator) just couldn't help it.

[Abby Normal]

Which ties into my theory that Bury's mind was unraveling. I'm looking for a logical explanation for Bury as the Ripper. Killing his wife might have been the last straw, hence his decision to visit the police instead of making a break for it.

Similar to kemper IMHO. Who also just happened to be a post mortem mutilator and killed a family member his mother as one of his last victims. And then contacted police.

[Abby Normal]

If I remember rightly, policemen were put on guard at the flat after the murder, so kids couldn't have done it.

Serial killers have been known to unravel and become architects of their own demise. The graffiti "confession" and his pathetic cover story at the police station could've been the actions of a serial killer who'd simply given up the ghost.

Ellen Bury's body was mutilated shortly after her death. That's the most telling thing for me. I could understand Bury panicking before deciding on his next move, but his first instinct was to brandish a knife and start mutilating the body. That's a rare paraphilia for a killer, and yet it's one he shared with another killer who lived in the East End in the autumn of 1888.

I agree. It's one of the main reasons for me on bury.

[Harry D]

Except the East End killer couldn't stop mutilating the body, practically demolishing Mary Kelly and leaving her viscera on display. In contrast, Bury barely inflicted a handful of flesh-wounds on his wife before stuffing her in a box.

Which ties into my theory that Bury's mind was unraveling. I'm looking for a logical explanation for Bury as the Ripper. Killing his wife might have been the last straw, hence his decision to visit the police instead of making a break for it.

[Sam Flynn]

Ellen Bury's body was mutilated shortly after her death. That's the most telling thing for me. I could understand Bury panicking before deciding on his next move, but his first instinct was to brandish a knife and start mutilating the body. That's a rare paraphilia for a killer, and yet it's one he shared with another killer who lived in the East End in the autumn of 1888.

Except the East End killer couldn't stop mutilating the body, practically demolishing his victims and leaving their viscera on display. In contrast, Bury barely inflicted a handful of flesh-wounds on his wife before stuffing her in a box.

[John G]

If I remember rightly, policemen were put on guard at the flat after the murder, so kids couldn't have done it.

Serial killers have been known to unravel and become architects of their own demise. The graffiti "confession" and his pathetic cover story at the police station could've been the actions of a serial killer who'd simply given up the ghost.

Ellen Bury's body was mutilated shortly after her death. That's the most telling thing for me. I could understand Bury panicking before deciding on his next move, but his first instinct was to brandish a knife and start mutilating the body. That's a rare paraphilia for a killer, and yet it's one he shared with another killer who lived in the East End in the autumn of 1888.

Yes, some very good points, Harry. I've just referred to Macpherson's book and he argues that it's hard to believe that anyone apart from Bury could have been responsible for the graffiti: No one apart from Bury entered the apartment from the time of the murder to the discovery of the body (a period of seven days); and once the murder was discovered there was always at least one policeman on duty at the scene of the crime.

It could, of course, have pre-dated the murder, but not only would this have been an enormous coincidence-considering Ellen's injuries-surely Bury would have cleaned it off.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Good call on Cullen, which is a classic. I didn't think much of Farson, TBH, and I've not read Hainsworth. However, a quick skim of the latter using Amazon's "Look Inside" feature shows me that it could be a good 'un.

I recall that it had some good research and info so I intend to revisit it at some point.