Is Bury the best suspect we have?

[John Wheat]

Well, your consistent in refusing to answer any and all questions directed your way. This time you propose a candidate and created a list to supposedly argue towards his superior validity, and then refuse to answer questions, giving your old they've been answered routine.

Suddenly he's not a candidate to be the ripper you say? Does this mean you are backing away from Bury?

And btw, Lechmere had childhood trauma: step dad was an alcoholic whose death certificate listed the symptoms of organ failure due to heavy drinking. Remember our little discussion on this last time I was here? Do you think its fun and laughter living with a step dad who drinks himself to death by the middle 30s?

I got this little tidbit from the American association for marriage and family therapy:

https://www.aamft.org/AAMFT/Consumer_Updates/Children_of_Alcoholics.aspx

Children of alcoholics may be exposed to chaos, uncertainty, instability, inconsistent discipline, emotional and physical neglect, arguments, instability of parents’ marriage, disorganization, violence and/or physical and sexual abuse, emptiness, loneliness, the terror of repeated abandonment, or the witnessing of violence or abuse to others. The family environment may be characterized by tension, fear, and shame--feelings that may become connected with the child’s sense of self. It is often difficult to determine whether a child’s problems are directly linked to parental alcoholism, separate, or a combination.

Did you notice the possibility of sexual abuse being a consequence of an alcoholic parent? And what exactly was Lechmere's 17 year old daughter doing living with grand ma? One possibility is that it is a family dealing with sexual molestation .... wouldn't you agree? This sort of nasty behavior is often passed down from old victim to new victim within families.

The idea that Lechmere is a better suspect than Bury is preposterous.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well, your consistent in refusing to answer any and all questions directed your way. This time you propose a candidate and created a list to supposedly argue towards his superior validity, and then refuse to answer questions, giving your old they've been answered routine.

I never intentionally avoid answering questions and one reason for that is that, unlike some, I have no issue saying: “I don’t know.” In the response part on here I will make sure that I respond to every single individual question.

Suddenly he's not a candidate to be the ripper you say? Does this mean you are backing away from Bury?

All this required from you is reading. I have claimed that William Bury (or any suspect for that matter) was the ripper. All that I’ve done is to suggest that if we applied a tick box list to the named ripper candidates Bury would score highly (again, just in case you still haven’t understood, I’m not saying that he was the killer) Indeed when we did that tick box exercise in the Rating The Suspects thread Bury was number two in the table behind Kelly.

And btw, Lechmere had childhood trauma: step dad was an alcoholic whose death certificate listed the symptoms of organ failure due to heavy drinking. Remember our little discussion on this last time I was here? Do you think its fun and laughter living with a step dad who drinks himself to death by the middle 30s?

I got this little tidbit from the American association for marriage and family therapy:

https://www.aamft.org/AAMFT/Consumer_Updates/Children_of_Alcoholics.aspx

Children of alcoholics may be exposed to chaos, uncertainty, instability, inconsistent discipline, emotional and physical neglect, arguments, instability of parents’ marriage, disorganization, violence and/or physical and sexual abuse, emptiness, loneliness, the terror of repeated abandonment, or the witnessing of violence or abuse to others. The family environment may be characterized by tension, fear, and shame--feelings that may become connected with the child’s sense of self. It is often difficult to determine whether a child’s problems are directly linked to parental alcoholism, separate, or a combination.

Did you notice the possibility of sexual abuse being a consequence of an alcoholic parent? And what exactly was Lechmere's 17 year old daughter doing living with grand ma? One possibility is that it is a family dealing with sexual molestation .... wouldn't you agree? This sort of nasty behavior is often passed down from old victim to new victim within families.

I’d certainly accept that but I would still ask how you can justify comparing Bury with Cross? With Cross we get a father who was a drinker which might have had an effect on his life. We have no evidence of Cross suffering any long lasting effects (that doesn’t mean that he might not have been affected though) All that you need to do is to look at their lives as we know them -

Cross: Married for years, children, long-term work, no evidence or record of violence or criminality or of behavioural issues.
Bury - Mother in an asylum, a criminal since a very young man, violent, heavy drinker, knife carrier (which we know that he threatened a woman with) temper, consorted with prostitutes, murdered a woman, mutilated her.

To dismiss Bury whilst promoting Cross in little short of bizarre.

Now, to answer and specific questions I missed.


Why was Bury so fetched with Whitechapel?

If he did then I have no idea why. Why is it considered a good point that we have no answer to something? Because we don’t know the answer to something doesn’t lessen the possibility of it occurring. Maybe he’d gotten into the habit of using certain pubs in the area? Maybe there were certain ‘regulars’ that he met for sex? Who knows?

Why was he always wandering into Whitechapel to commit the murders?
Bethnell Green was an equally lovely hell hole, was closer, and had plenty of prostitutes - Bow also offering these amenities.
The entire police force was mobilized against you in the Whitechapel area, and yet you insist on doing your killings there - good heavens, why?

Again, you appear to believe that a lack of a known reason somehow reduces the possibility of something occurring. The killer, whoever he was, killed in that area…why? We can’t just assume that he lived there.

The entire police force was mobilised against whoever Jack the Ripper was and yet he continued to kill in that area. It’s no less likely for Bury to have operated in that area than any other suspect. (Answered)

What was he doing along Buck's row at 3:30 am, some 3 hours after the pubs had to close by law? Hanging out in the train station?

Who knows?But someone was in Bucks Row 3 hours after the pubs had closed. It’s no less likely to have been Bury than anyone else. (Answered)

And why was he getting sauced up near Berner street Saturday night before stumbling out of some pub and killing Liz Stride .....

We don’t know that he did. (Answered)

Bow had no pubs? Maybe the plan was to make the 45 minute walk from Bow, get smashed and then head on out for the killing spree.

Did Peter Sutcliffe kill on his doorstep? Did Ted Bundy stick to a small area? How can we presume to know what a serial killer was thinking at the time. Surely you can’t be suggesting that no one living outside of that small killing zone could have been the killer? Killing in a confined area where you live increases the likelihood of the killer not just being seen but seen and recognised. (I’ll add the fact that Bury had a horse and cart - Answered)

The city of London was closer to the crime scenes and had plenty of violent, wife beating drunks with miserable childhoods to your heart's content. Sift through a list there and you're as likely to find the Ripper as with Bury.

True enough. (Responded too)

If you can't answer these questions, imagining Bury as JtR is absurd.

What is genuinely absurd is for an intelligent person to mention Cross and Bury in the same breath as suspects.

[Mark J D]

... And what exactly was Lechmere's 17 year old daughter doing living with grand ma? One possibility is that it is a family dealing with sexual molestation .... wouldn't you agree? This sort of nasty behavior is often passed down from old victim to new victim within families.

To which I would only add that, after literally decades living near or very near to his Ma, Lechmere's sudden move all the way out to Doveton Street didn't happen for no reason.

Bests,

Mark D.

[Lombro2]

Even your Diarist Michael Barrett knows you need to explain why Whitechapel when you’re outside Whitechapel.

[Geddy2112]

To which I would only add that, after literally decades living near or very near to his Ma, Lechmere's sudden move all the way out to Doveton Street didn't happen for no reason.

Needed a bigger house for his growing family, nothing sinister in that I'm sure. My parents did it.

[rjpalmer]

And btw, Lechmere had childhood trauma: step dad was an alcoholic whose death certificate listed the symptoms of organ failure due to heavy drinking. Remember our little discussion on this last time I was here? Do you think its fun and laughter living with a step dad who drinks himself to death by the middle 30s?

This isn't the thread for it, but I'm deeply skeptical of this claim. It is your theory, but is it a fact?

We've all seen skid row drunks who stubbornly cling to life into their late 40s, 50s, or even 60s despite pouring rotgut down their throats for years on end. Yet you have Thomas Cross suffering organ failure from alcoholism at the relatively young age of 34.

And yet, during this same span Cross is listed as a police constable at the time of his February 1858 marriage; again in 1861; and again on his death certificate in 1869. There is also a small amount of newspaper clippings referring to him walking the beat.

So how did this allegedly raging drunk manage to hold on to his job for a decade--in an organization that demanded discipline, no less---at a level of alcohol abuse that led to his total collapse in the prime of life?

If I were you, I'd run your diagnosis past Dr. Gregory House. If he did indeed die of kidney failure, there are a lot of reasons a person's kidneys can fail at a young age, and alcoholism is pretty low on that list.

RP

[Mark J D]

This isn't the thread for it, but I'm deeply skeptical of this claim.

This isn't the thread for it, but here is the death certificate that Dr Palmer is opining about...



M.

[Lewis C]

This isn't the thread for it, but here is the death certificate that Dr Palmer is opining about...



M.

I don't see anything about alcoholism or heavy drinking mentioned on the death certificate.

[Lewis C]

I’ve just had it pointed out to me by Roger Palmer that Murry wasn’t actually the suspect he was the informant. A piece of careless reading on my part which was well spotted by Roger.

Hi Herlock,

With all of the Murrays mentioned, I'm confused about which is which. It appears that 3 of them spelled their names with an "a" (Murray), and that one spelled it without an "a" (Murry). If that's the case, the one you're talking about here would be the one without an "a", the 38 year old labourer John Murry. Baron spelled his suspect's name without an "a", so if what I've said so far is right, then either Baron's suspect is really the informant or Baron misspelled his name.

[Mark J D]

I don't see anything about alcoholism or heavy drinking mentioned on the death certificate.

Can't help you with that, squire.

M.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't see anything about alcoholism or heavy drinking mentioned on the death certificate.

Maybe someone used invisible ink Lewis.

[rjpalmer]

This isn't the thread for it, but here is the death certificate that Dr Palmer is opining about...

Free advice:

Never take medical advice from anyone named Dr. Palmer. Especially if he's from Rugeley.



RP

[Newbie]

Now, to answer and specific questions I missed.


Why was Bury so fetched with Whitechapel?

If he did then I have no idea why. Why is it considered a good point that we have no answer to something? Because we don’t know the answer to something doesn’t lessen the possibility of it occurring. Maybe he’d gotten into the habit of using certain pubs in the area? Maybe there were certain ‘regulars’ that he met for sex? Who knows?

Why was he always wandering into Whitechapel to commit the murders?
Bethnell Green was an equally lovely hell hole, was closer, and had plenty of prostitutes - Bow also offering these amenities.
The entire police force was mobilized against you in the Whitechapel area, and yet you insist on doing your killings there - good heavens, why?

Again, you appear to believe that a lack of a known reason somehow reduces the possibility of something occurring. The killer, whoever he was, killed in that area…why? We can’t just assume that he lived there.

The entire police force was mobilised against whoever Jack the Ripper was and yet he continued to kill in that area. It’s no less likely for Bury to have operated in that area than any other suspect. (Answered)

What was he doing along Buck's row at 3:30 am, some 3 hours after the pubs had to close by law? Hanging out in the train station?

Who knows?But someone was in Bucks Row 3 hours after the pubs had closed. It’s no less likely to have been Bury than anyone else. (Answered)

And why was he getting sauced up near Berner street Saturday night before stumbling out of some pub and killing Liz Stride .....

We don’t know that he did. (Answered)

Bow had no pubs? Maybe the plan was to make the 45 minute walk from Bow, get smashed and then head on out for the killing spree.

Did Peter Sutcliffe kill on his doorstep? Did Ted Bundy stick to a small area? How can we presume to know what a serial killer was thinking at the time. Surely you can’t be suggesting that no one living outside of that small killing zone could have been the killer? Killing in a confined area where you live increases the likelihood of the killer not just being seen but seen and recognised. (I’ll add the fact that Bury had a horse and cart - Answered)

The city of London was closer to the crime scenes and had plenty of violent, wife beating drunks with miserable childhoods to your heart's content. Sift through a list there and you're as likely to find the Ripper as with Bury.

True enough. (Responded too)

If you can't answer these questions, imagining Bury as JtR is absurd.

What is genuinely absurd is for an intelligent person to mention Cross and Bury in the same breath as suspects.

Yes, you don't know .... and its kind of crucial to establish it for this guy to be taken seriously.

Ted Bundy didn't kill in a small area .... but the Ripper did, what is your point? Most everyone except you are convinced that the Ripper
was intimately familiar with the streets in which he killed ... the double event being one clear example of that knowledge.

Lechmere had it in spades, and Bury was new to not only Bow, but London in general.

From Berner street, to Mitre square, and back to Berner street to pick up your horse and cart and take flight: are you serious?
At night by a guy who doesn't know the area ... gaining his knowledge from hanging out at a few bars for inexplicable reasons?

The alternative is the 50 minute walk into Whitechapel just to kill, and then the 50 minute walk back to Bow ... sometimes unsuccessfully
one would imagine, because the opportunity just didn't arrive. Getting up at 2:30 am to make the long walk and kill Polly Nichols,
and then returning to Bow because you had no business being in White Chapel ..... and yet you always kill in a less than 1 square mile area in Whitechapel. Did Peter Sutcliffe kill in a small area some distance away from his home? No, he did not. What was your point in bringing him and Bundy into the discussion again?

Sutcliffe's father btw was an (abusive) alcoholic .... so, he shares that with Lech.

If people actually took Bury seriously, then there would be extensive research in making the connection between his employer in Bow,
and businesses in White Chapel. But no one really takes him seriously and doesn't bother to do that. Just lazy hand waiving arguments
on how he frequented prostitutes and killed his wife, etc.

[Newbie]

I don't see anything about alcoholism or heavy drinking mentioned on the death certificate.

Yes, you do .... you just don't understand what is in front of you. Drospy and uremia, and there were a few other descriptors of his failing health listed, are symptoms of failing internal organs due to end stage alcoholism. Alcoholic poisoning is the only plausible etiology for the symptoms listed .... dropsy alone, back in 1888, was the catch all medical term for the effects of alcoholism ... but modern medicine would perceive the other tell tale symptoms listed. We had this debate a year ago, and the anti-Lechmerites ended up conceding the point and pivoting towards the so-what, that doesn't make him a serial killer posturing. A plucky group they are ... its not like alcoholism was uncommon back then.

But now they are getting cheeky and pretending that Lechmere had a trauma free childhood .... which we know was not the case.

[Newbie]

This isn't the thread for it, but I'm deeply skeptical of this claim. It is your theory, but is it a fact?

We've all seen skid row drunks who stubbornly cling to life into their late 40s, 50s, or even 60s despite pouring rotgut down their throats for years on end. Yet you have Thomas Cross suffering organ failure from alcoholism at the relatively young age of 34.

And yet, during this same span Cross is listed as a police constable at the time of his February 1858 marriage; again in 1861; and again on his death certificate in 1869. There is also a small amount of newspaper clippings referring to him walking the beat.

So how did this allegedly raging drunk manage to hold on to his job for a decade--in an organization that demanded discipline, no less---at a level of alcohol abuse that led to his total collapse in the prime of life?

If I were you, I'd run your diagnosis past Dr. Gregory House. If he did indeed die of kidney failure, there are a lot of reasons a person's kidneys can fail at a young age, and alcoholism is pretty low on that list.

RP

Why are you asking me these question? Google them and you'll get answers.
1 in 5 deaths of US adults 20 to 49 is from excessive ...

Again, look at the symptoms and do your own research, come up with a reasonable etiology.
I've already done this and would rather just relocate the arguments.

As for Cross's time on the police force, we don't know if he died a PC or resigned.
Its evidently more common in police officers than in the general population
Alcohol Abuse Among Police Officers


Cross must have been hitting the sauce hard from a young age to die in his mid 30s.